How to Get a Second Passport: Citizenship, Residency and Why Timing Matters

A second passport isn’t just a “nice to have” anymore. It’s becoming a real consideration for people who want options and flexibility built into their long-term plan.

Richard Taylor – dual UK/US citizen and Chartered Financial Planner – sits down with global mobility specialist Dan Brotman to break down what’s going on with citizenship, residency, and why more expats are thinking seriously about a Plan B as part of their international wealth strategy.

Dan Brotman shares his own story, from becoming an expat at 14 to building a life across multiple countries, and explains why, despite how it feels, only a tiny percentage of people live abroad. They talk about why expats tend to think differently, and why once you’ve lived internationally, it’s hard to ever see the world the same way again.

The conversation then shifts into what people really want to know. How you get a second passport or residency. From traditional routes to investment migration and ancestry, what’s realistic today, what’s getting harder, and where people are making expensive mistakes when it comes to cross border financial planning.

Richard and Dan also explore how tighter immigration rules, rising global uncertainty, and changing policies are impacting expats, immigrants, and internationally minded families. Whether you’re looking for advice for expats, advice for immigrants, or thinking longer-term about expat retirement planning, this is about understanding your options before they close.

If you’re already living abroad or thinking about it, this episode will give you a much clearer picture of what’s possible, what to be aware of, and how this fits into your wider financial growth and planning decisions with a trusted expat wealth advisor.

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Expat Wealth is supported by Plan First Wealth. Plan First Wealth is a Registered Investment Advisor serving fellow expatriates and immigrants living across the US on matters such as retirement planning, investment management, tax planning and non-US asset management.

https://planfirstwealth.com/

 

Expat Wealth is affiliated with Plan First Wealth LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Plan First Wealth.  

 

Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investments involve risk and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial adviser and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed herein. Plan First Wealth does not provide any tax and/or legal advice and strongly recommends that listeners seek their own advice in these areas.

 

ABOUT RICHARD:

Richard Taylor is a British expat, dual citizen (UK & US). Originally from Bolton, he now lives in Greenwich, CT, where Plan First Wealth has its head office.

As the firm’s leader, Richard launched Taylor & Taylor, now Plan First Wealth, and continues to fuel the firm’s growth. Richard is a Chartered Financial Planner (UK – CII) in addition to holding the IMC (CFA UK) and Series 65 (US – FINRA).

Connect with Richard on LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT:

Dan Brotman: [00:00:00 – 00:00:10]

I think expats are a special breed of people. Many people don’t realize that only 3.6% of people globally live outside of their country of birth. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:00:10 – 00:00:42]

You mentioned that to me last time we spoke. I cannot believe that. And I guess it’s because in our expat circles, we tend to hang around with expats. My business is built around expats. I know the expat advisory community, and I just. And we’ve witnessed this kind of relentless globalization of the world, and more and more people are moving abroad, and more and more Americans are moving abroad. And you kind of just. I assumed it was so much bigger than that. And for you to say it’s only 3.6%, I can’t. I still can’t wrap my head around how low that is. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:00:42 – 00:01:19]

And all that we’re seeing with immigration right now on all fronts is that it’s tightening. So I think it’s a huge mistake on the citizenship and residency front when people say, I’m going to just like, you know, we’ll see what happens. I’ll wait a couple of years. I’m kind of thinking about it. I think that what we’re seeing now is with increasing conflict, with pandemics, governments shut their borders, and it’s always going to be easiest to get back in if you’re a citizen or permanent resident, like we saw during COVID but certainly if you’re just a foreigner. I mean, you remember During COVID a U.S. passport had the same strength as a Rwandan passport. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:01:22 – 00:02:45]

Welcome to Expat Wealth, a Plan first wealth podcast dedicated to helping ambitious expatriates in America and Americans overseas thrive. I’m your host, Richard Taylor, and Plan first wealth is the business I founded and run today, and we work with successful expatriates, immigrants and internationally minded Americans to make the most of their opportunity and avoid the expat landmines. First, a quick disclaimer. While Plan First Wealth, LLC is an SEC registered investment advisor, the views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views and positions of Plan First Wealth. Information presented is for educational purposes only. Now, if you aren’t already receiving our emails, please go to our website, www.planfirstwealth.com and sign up there. It’s free and you’ll be notified every time we drop a new episode and so much more. Okay, let’s get back to this week’s show. Welcome to An Ask an expert show from Expat Wealth. My guest today is Dan Brotman. Dan is a global mobility specialist and he is the holder of four passports. And Dan, like me, is an evangelist of all things expatriate. So I anticipate this being a wide ranging conversation on why we think more people should consider living abroad, the value in having more than one citizenship and how they can go about making this happen. Hi Dan, welcome to Expat Wealth. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:02:45 – 00:02:47]

Thanks for having me, Richard. Good to be here. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:02:47 – 00:02:54]

Yeah, great to have you. So would you mind just telling people a little bit about your, your very interesting and highly mobile story? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:02:55 – 00:04:11]

Sure. So I was born just a regular American guy in Boston. Even my parents and grandparents were born in the US and there’s nothing about my background that’s super international. I mean, we traveled a little bit overseas when I was growing up, but, you know, nothing crazy, but when I was 14 years old, I went to Africa for the first time and I spent a week in Cape Town, South Africa and I saw colors and smelled smells and had experiences that I never had in Boston. And I had this crazy idea while I was on the trip which was, what if I actually came to live here and this is as a 14 year old and we went to a school, a local school, and the principal of the school said, if you want to come to my school, you’re more than welcome to, we’ll help you find a local host family. So I begged my parents and at the age of 14, I became an expat for the first time on my own. Now there are many teenagers who move abroad with their families. That in itself is a very eye opening experience. But imagine doing it at the age of 14 by yourself. And from the age of 14 onwards I either became a full time expat or I was always planning on becoming an expat again even after I moved back. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:04:11 – 00:05:31]

Always planning, right? I mean, that’s one of the things about those expats. We’ve got ants and our pants or adhd, whatever you want to call it, one of the two. But, but we are. I mean I’m, I’ve been now, I mean I’ve, I’ve moved three times to three different countries and I’m. This is the longest I’ve been somewhere since I was a kid and I’ve, I’ve actually moved through it now. But there was a period a couple of years ago where I was just desperate to move. Not because I was unhappy where I was, just because it was time, I needed something new, I wanted a new adventure and my wife had to kind of like help me see it for what it was, which was just this, this. This need to. To move, to constantly be seeking new things. And she’s like, look, got. You got a family now. You got kids. Your kids are going to school. Like, behave. So I’ve kind of worked through it. That doesn’t. That doesn’t stop me on Google Maps or Zillow or various websites checking stuff, most nights pondering, planning my next move, most of which will come to. Will never come to fruition. But I do think this is a feature of people like us who have moved and likely will move in that it makes a difference to other people. Although I will agree with you, 14 Solo is highly unusual. And not only that, you’re a long way from home. A long way from home. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:05:32 – 00:05:45]

Yeah, for sure. And again, I think expats are a special breed of people. Many people don’t realize that only 3.6% of people globally live outside of their country of birth. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:05:45 – 00:06:19]

Right. You. Sorry, just. Sorry to interrupt. You mentioned that to me last time we spoke. I cannot believe that. And I guess it’s because in our expat circles, we tend to hang around with expats. My business is built around expats. I know the expat advisory community, and I just. And we’ve witnessed this kind of relentless globalization of the world, and more and more people are moving abroad, and more and more Americans are moving abroad. And you kind of just. I assumed it was so much bigger than that. And for you to say it’s only 3.6%, I can’t. I still can’t run my head around how low that is. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:06:19 – 00:08:05]

It’s a very small percentage of the population. But again, once you’re an expat, even if you move back to your home country, you tend to socialize with people who have had shared experiences. So you wind up surrounding yourself with people who have maybe lived abroad or are currently expats. I mean, it’s funny, I think about even in the citizenship, and we’re speaking about citizenship and residency today, most of my friends have at least two passports, if not three. Three. But that’s actually just selection bias, and that’s because I’m very attracted to people who have international backgrounds. You’re clearly attracted to people who are or have been expats. But that’s, That’s a. An a selection bias and an echo chamber. Whereas in reality, it’s a minuscule percentage of the population. Most people in the world either don’t have the choice to move, so they’re. They’re living somewhere and they don’t have the resources to leave. Or there are people who just. It’s beyond their realm of imagination. They say, this is where I’m from. I couldn’t imagine living elsewhere. Don’t forget that when you look at the people who move, it’s never the poorest segment of society that leave their home country. Even if you look at the people who are crossing the Mediterranean on boats into Europe, it’s very expensive. It’s thousands of dollars to do that. So the people who are crossing those boats into Europe are people who are not at the lowest end of society. The people at the lowest socioeconomic rung of society are staying put. It’s the people who had the resources to pay to be smuggled across. So, yeah, I think that’s just something to be mindful about. Is that all these conversations we’re having about citizenships, about being an expat, it’s really just a tiny percentage of the population that this is applicable to, although there are many people who are maybe thinking about these issues and just haven’t acted on it yet. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:08:05 – 00:09:00]

Yeah, well, you and me both want to encourage more people to do it, partly because it’s good for business, although that’s not the main reason. I just, as I said in the intro, I am an evangelist for it. I. It has changed my life for the better on so many levels. It’s changed, helped me become a better person, I believe, and it also broadened my horizons in ways I could never have imagined. And that’s super exciting. And I think and, and, and regular listeners of this podcast will, will have heard me say this before. One of the reasons I love working with expats so much is one of the reasons why I think you and I both enjoy socializing with them and working this sector is because expats tend to be more open minded, more adventurous, bolder, more fun. And they’re all traits that I really like personally. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:09:00 – 00:09:07]

And an interesting distinction that comes up in conversation is what’s the difference between an expat and an immigrant? What’s your opinion on that? 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:09:08 – 00:10:18]

Oh, wow. Controversial here. Now, this is. I have seen some, I’ve seen some hot takes on this. Well, so I’ve seen people get very upset that we call ourselves expatriates, and they say, well, you’re immigrants, you know, and, you know, you’re wealthy, you privileged people are considering themselves expats. And essentially we’re denigrating immigrants by calling ourselves that. And I, and I see where they’re coming from, that I, I think they’re Completely wrong. I am both an expatriate and an immigrant. I am an expatriate from Britain and I always will be. And I am an immigrant to America and I don’t have any prep. You can call me an expatriate or an immigrant. I have no problem with either. I am both. I consider myself both. The reason I talk about expatriate is because that’s the group I identify with the most in terms of, you know, there are loads of immigrants to America from hundreds of different countries. Right. Whereas I, I identify most with the British contingent because I am a British expatriate. So that’s why I tend to talk in those terms. But what, what’s your, I mean, let me back this one back to you. What’s your take on that? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:10:19 – 00:11:19]

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting when you think of the word expat. I think it, it sounds like a more temporary term. So with an expat it might be like I’m sojourning in a place for a period of time, but I’m keeping the option open of moving back home or moving place. I think that I’m quite clinical about it. So I think about, you know, when you move to a country, you can go on a non immigrant visa or on an immigrant visa. And so when I think of an, a non immigrant visa would be for someone maybe who comes for, just for a specific job and they’re not necessarily getting permanent residency. I would see that person as an expat because it’s not as permanent in nature. I would see someone who comes on an immigrant visa, someone who comes with a permanent stay status, indefinite leave to remain permanent residency, a green card in the US that, that would be more of an immigrant. But again, I don’t think there are any right answers. And I think you can be both. I think you can be both. I, I consider myself to be an American expat and I’m an immigrant in Canada. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:11:20 – 00:11:53]

Yeah, that sounds like. Right, so I, I agree expat does connote something more, more temporary. Certainly historically, you know, people would go in oil and gas in Britain, people go and work in the Middle east or something for a couple of years and, and they were expatriates in that time and, and there were very much expatriate. And, and so I completely see where you’re coming from with that. I do think it’s changed and not necessarily changed. I think it’s evolved from that. And like you, I, I see myself as both an expatriate and an immigrant. And I will always be both. I’ll always be an expatriate from the uk and now I am an immigrant to the US and maybe one day I’ll be an immigrant somewhere else. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:11:54 – 00:12:08]

And a more accurate term is just defining ourselves as global citizens. I mean, for me, I’m. For me. For me, a global citizen is someone who can feel at home anywhere in the world, or that someone who can make anywhere home. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:12:09 – 00:12:32]

You have four passports, and if you would, you share which ones you have. And I just want to highlight to people you didn’t, you were born with one. So this is not something that you have inherited. Like, my kids have two. They were born with two. Well, we applied for the second one, but they’ve basically had two. You have gone out there and applied for and gained second, third, four citizenships. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:12:33 – 00:14:03]

Yes, I have quite an interesting passport portfolio. I was born as an American. Just said as an American. I mean, my, my grandparents were born in the U.S. my parents are only American citizens, my siblings are only American citizens. But in each place that I’ve lived in, so the U.S. israel, South Africa and Canada, I’ve made those place permanent homes. So they’re all places where I, you know, sometimes I arrived on a temp, on temporary status and transitioned eventually to Perman. But I felt like I was part of those societies. I was paying taxes, I was working, I wanted to participate in the political system, vote in the elections. And for me, the ultimate commitment to a country when you’re living there is to become a citizen. So some people say, oh, you just collect passports? No, I would say I collect experiences around the world. I collect living in different parts of the world. And when you obtain permanent status and you’re eligible for citizenship, if it’s where you feel you’re at home at the time, why wouldn’t you want to become a citizen? So that’s how I built my passport portfolio was built alongside just my life. There are people who use other strategies, and I’m sure we’re going to be speaking about it. There are people who say, I don’t actually want to leave my home country, but I want a plan B, or I want citizenship or residency elsewhere because it’s possible that in the future I may want to exercise that option. So they’re preemptively planning to be global citizens, even if they’re not willing to pull the trigger yet. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:14:04 – 00:14:57]

Let’s talk about that. So you’re a global mobility specialist. And we’ve kind of mostly focused on why we think people should Consider expatriating, living abroad, temporarily or permanently, the widening horizons, the experiences. I will say, when I got a second passport, when I got a second citizenship, it really is meaningful. It really does. Something changes inside of you and you become even more attached to that country legally, obviously, but, but, but emotionally as well, which I think is a. I think is a really great and powerful thing. But then there’s the other thing which you just mentioned, which is people are doing this not just because they want to go and live somewhere, not just because they want to feel like an American or like a, you know, you’re Portuguese, whatever it might be. People are doing this for a plan B. I see that all the time now. So can you just expand on that a little bit? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:14:58 – 00:17:58]

Yeah, I mean, I think the world is becoming quite a scary place. We’re going through so many changes right now. We’re going through a technological revolution. And again, when you’re in the midst of it, you don’t actually realize how historic it is. But I think that we’re in an era right now that’s going to be written about in the history books, similar to how they write about the Industrial Revolution. So we’re in the midst of huge technological changes, economic changes. The post World War II global order is coming to an end and we don’t know what’s going to replace it. So I think we sometimes underestimate just how much we’re going through right now and that this will be written about one day in the history books. And places change. There are places that today are good that are not going to be good in the future. And there are places that are not so good today that will improve in the future. I mean, again, of course it’s in the news, but I look at places like Iran. I mean, Iran, actually prior. And I’ve been to Iran, you know, prior to 1979, was actually quite a secular country. It had full relations with the us, with Israel. It was seen as a bastion of the west in the Middle East. And imagine you were born In Iran before 1979, the world you thought you were being born into and now the worlds that you’re growing up in. So places, places change. I mean, even when I look at the countries that I’m a citizen of, those countries have vastly changed between the time I was born and the present. And, you know, we’re seeing so much geopolitical conflict right now. We don’t know how everything is going to unfold. We’re in the midst of change. The global order is crumbling. The US might be leaving NATO. We don’t know what’s going to happen. And so there are people that say that just like they would diversify their investments and not put all of their investments into one company, they don’t want to put all of their mobility eggs into one basket. Meaning that there may be a situation in the future where there’s a better place to live and they want to have that optionality. There might be a situation in the future where circumstances in their home country deteriorate and they’re just going to want to be able to get on a plane and go somewhere. We’re also living through an era of populism right now where voters are very frustrated with the cost of living, where we have the anti immigrant right rising in various parts of the world. And all that we’re seeing with immigration right now on all fronts is that it’s tightening. So I think it’s a huge mistake on the citizenship and residency front when people say, ah, I’m going to just like, you know, we’ll see what happens. I’ll wait a couple of years. I’m kind of thinking about it. I always say this is something you’re thinking about and if the barrier to entry is low enough and accepted, accessible enough for you, get in now, get grandfathered in now. Because chances are it’s only going to become more difficult and we’re going to be chatting about also some changes in 2026. But I see on all fronts with immigration it just becoming more and more restrictive. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:17:58 – 00:18:16]

You know, Dan, you’ve just kind of just triggered something in me. The world is going through something and it has been going through something for, I know since 2006 was really, since the Ferguson riots, I think maybe even a little bit before that. But, but Brexit, I would say since. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:18:16 – 00:18:18]

London was the beginning, actually. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:18:18 – 00:19:14]

Yeah. And I, for a long time I just thought I was growing up and becoming aware of the world. You know, I thought when you’re a kid, you take everything for granted. You take, you take democracy for granted, you take freedom of speech for granted. You take so much for granted. And then you get older and things happen and you start to realize, oh, this is all kind of a little bit shaky. It’s, it, this only works when we all consent to it. And then I thought this is what the world does. You take two steps forward, one step back. And we were taking a step back. That’s what, that’s what I thought. But recently, and, and you know, your comments have just kind of solidified that maybe it’s not just one step back. Maybe it is a complete sea change. All those factors you just mentioned happening, this has been building and building and building and now it’s all coming at us. Maybe this really is a big sea change. That’s interesting. I’m going to ponder that. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:19:15 – 00:22:00]

I think an inflection point economically, politically. I also think that something that we also need to think about is just climate change. And again, we don’t always see the effects of now. You know, when we look at our children and our grandchildren and where they’re going to live, there are parts of the world that are going to become increasingly uncomfortable to live in because of climate change, either because of droughts or because of other changes and human beings migrate. It’s a survival tactic that we have is when war breaks out or when the climate changes, we move. And the question is, do you want to wait until disaster strikes or do you want to secure an option for yourself now so that if disaster strikes, you just get on that plane and leave? And I think something for me that really was quite eye opening was Covid. We saw something that we had never seen in our lifetimes, which is countries responding to disaster by just completely closing their borders. So for example, there were people who were on temporary workplaces permits who couldn’t, they were abroad visiting their families because they weren’t Canadian citizens or permanent residents. They couldn’t fly back to the country and they were suddenly stuck. You see people who, even now with the war in the Middle east, people are, people are stuck abroad. So I think that what we’re seeing now is with increasing conflict, with pandemics, governments shut their borders and it’s always going to be easiest to get back in if you’re a citizen or permanent resident, like we saw during COVID But certainly if you’re just a foreigner, I mean, you remember During COVID a U.S. passport had the same strength as a Rwandan passport. So we sometimes say, oh well, I’m from a first world country, I have a strong passport, I’m always going to be able to move. Every country is always going to want me. Well, you don’t know what political changes could happen in the destination country where suddenly they actually become very anti foreigner and they make it very difficult for people to move. And you also don’t know what kind of geopolitical changes could impact your ability to cross borders in the future. I’m sure you know, our listeners know that the US has now imposed a full or partial travel ban on 75 countries. Some of those Countries, especially in Africa, have now decided to reciprocate with travel bans on American citizens. So closing borders, banning citizens, this is very much the era we’re living in. And so by having a second option, if one of your nationalities restricts your movement, having a second nationality or residency can actually still enable you to cross borders. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:22:01 – 00:22:10]

Yeah, absolutely right. So let’s talk about how then, Dan. How, how, how do I go about getting a second or third residency citizenship? What are my options? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:22:10 – 00:23:20]

So the way that I look at it is there are three main ways. The first way is a traditional immigration. And that’s what you and I did. That’s how you became American. That’s how I became Canadian. We went through a formal immigration process. It was lengthy, it was expensive, it took years, but eventually we became citizens. And that’s one way that people do it, is they move countries and they build new lives in other places. And after they get become citizens, sometimes they decide to move home or they decide to move to a third place, but they’ve secured it that way. That’s becoming increasingly difficult with the rise of populism right now and anti immigration sentiment where countries are drastically cutting immigration intakes. And you know, there are some countries, for example, and I love to use the example of Canada, Canada operates off a points based system. Australia does too. And basically what it means is that the country awards you a certain number of points. You’re assigned points based on your language ability, based on your level of education, but most importantly based on your age. And so what I always say is, you know, if you’re 45 and above, you get 0 points if you want to immigrate. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:23:21 – 00:23:28]

Oh God, I wish, I wish I hadn’t told me that I’m knocking on the door of that if you immigrate. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:23:28 – 00:23:31]

To Canada or the US you get zero. I’m sorry, Canada or Australia. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:23:32 – 00:23:34]

And over the hill. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:23:34 – 00:23:54]

Yes. And from 40 it gets very bad. You lose 10 points from 40. There’s sort of a sweet spot of when they want you to move, they want you to contribute as much to the tax system as possible. The bottom line is a 50 year old billionaire has less of a chance of successfully obtaining permanent residency in Canada than a 29 year old with a master’s degree. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:23:54 – 00:23:55]

Good. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:23:55 – 00:24:35]

So I think that’s one thing to keep in mind is that countries have profiles of what they’re looking for. It depends on which country. You may or may not fit that profile. That’s one. The second way of doing it is, and this is usually the cheapest way is ancestry. So always looking into your family tree. Do you have a parent who was born abroad? Do you have a grandparent or even in some cases a great grandparent who was born abroad? Those rules are also changing. So for example, Italy up until recently allowed you to obtain Italian citizenship up to great grandparent. That’s now been restricted to grandparent with further caveats. So there, Italy is very much tightening. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:24:35 – 00:24:42]

Dan, why, why, why, why did they leave it so open and what’s made them decide to tighten it, do you know? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:24:43 – 00:25:08]

Well, it’s the meloni, it’s the rise of the right where there’s, there’s generally, you know, as we see nationalism rise, I think that citizenship is sort of viewed as a very, with a scarcity mentality that we actually don’t want to give it out to as many people, whether it’s people who are descendants of people from our country or new immigrants. We’re going to tighten rules. If you want to immigrate here, we’re going to make it harder. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:25:08 – 00:25:20]

Dan, is there a backlash in somewhere like Italy against all these Americans and others getting citizenship at the people level? Are the people unhappy about it? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:25:20 – 00:29:19]

Well, I think it’s interesting. So, I mean, I spent time in Portugal, so Portugal has become a real, real hotspot for expats in a way that it wasn’t before. And I was interviewing, I’m also a journalist, I was interviewing people in Lisbon and they were quite resentful. They feel that they are being pushed out of their own country. They said at the time, our country is inviting in high net worth people, digital nomads. And those people are actually now pricing us out and we’re actually having to migrate to places like Germany because we can’t afford to live in our own country on Portuguese salaries. So certainly from like what I saw in places like Portugal, there was a lot of resentment and the government responds to that. So again, talking about, you know, we’re going to get to investment migration. But countries like Portugal and Spain have very much clamped down on what we call golden visas, which are residency permits by investment. And they’re making it a lot harder for expats to obtain a longer term status there that leads to citizenship. There are countries that are a lot easier, by the way. So while places like Italy have clamped down, countries like Canada have completely liberalized and millions of Americans are now eligible for Canadian citizenship. And they didn’t know that they were. So the Canadian citizen system used to work quite similar to the UK Whereas if you were, if, if you were born to a Canadian parent outside of Canada, you got Canadian citizenship very similar to how your children got British citizenship born in the U.S. but however, they can’t pass it down to their children. So with your kids it kind of ends with them as they move to the UK and have families with Canada, it was the same one generation abroad. The Canadian Supreme Court ruled last year that that needs to change. And basically anyone now who has a Canadian ancestor is potentially eligible for Canadian citizenship. And I’m not just talking grandparent, great grandparent, sometimes great great grandparent, millions of Americans, and I mean, I’m from New England. There was a lot of movement between New England and Quebec especially. There are many Americans now who are actually putting archival requests in to find their ancestors birth certificate so they can apply for Canadian citizenship. So again, I wouldn’t say it’s getting stricter or liberalizing. I think it depends on the country. But ancestry is typically the least expensive way to do it. What’s nice, of course, about it is that you typically don’t have to live there. So you could potentially obtain a passport, but you don’t have to move there. You get your plan B. It might cost you a couple of thousand dollars, but there’s a big difference between a couple of thousand dollars and what you’re going to pay for an investment migration program. Okay, so we covered general migration, like what you and I did, citizenship by ancestry, like what your children received having been born in the US to at least one British parent. And the third way is investment migration. Investment migration is typically for people who don’t want to move abroad immediately or aren’t eligible to immigrate to a particular country and they can’t get citizenship by ancestry. So investment migration is set up by governments where they prioritize different funds and different projects where they want foreign direct investment. And they say that if a foreign national makes an investment at a specified amount in that fund or in that project, they will be granted temporary residency, permanent residency or citizenship, depending on the program. And what’s very nice about it is you don’t have to live there. So it’s similar to citizenship by ancestry. You can stay in your home country. Very, very few residency requirements to maintain your status. And it’s a Plan B. And it’s a Plan B that you can basically buy your way into. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:29:19 – 00:29:47]

Sometimes it’s citizenship, sometimes it’s just residency. And when it’s just residency, there’s often no route to citizenship. So why would anyone do that? Why would anyone just, just ignore that and go straight to one with citizenship. Because, because my thinking is if you want a Plan B and you can only secure a Plan B that gets you residency, well, you kind of like you’ve left a big gaping hole in your, in your, in your Plan B plan because, you know, you’re not. You, you don’t have a passport. You can probably presumably get kicked out anytime. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:29:48 – 00:32:13]

Yeah, I mean, I think there’s, there’s a couple of reasons why someone would go for residency and not citizenship. The first one is that citizenship’s just not available. Again, going back to what’s changing in the world. There used to be many programs out there where you could make an investment and obtain citizenship. They got rid of that. So countries that used to offer that, I mean, Malta was the last country in the European Union to offer it. And the European Court of Justice had a ruling last year, they made a ruling against Malta that applied to the entire European Union that there can be no more transactional citizens citizenship that Malta. It was basically violating the, the European Union rules for Malta to essentially sell citizenship. And they had to stop. So there’s no EU country now where you can do that. So that’s one issue is just that it’s simply not available. So when it’s not available, you always want to do a hierarchy. The hierarchy, the top hierarchy, is always citizenship for exactly the reasons that you just mentioned. With citizenship, it gives you full flexibility. First of all, citizenship, typically, unless you’ve committed fraud or misrepresented yourself, typically cannot be revoked. So it’s permanent. You can then choose to live wherever you want in the world. You’re also treated differently as a citizen than as a resident when you are traveling. So again, let’s say you have a passport from an African country, but you have a permanent residency card from a European country. When you travel around the world that you’re going to present that African passport, they’re still going to treat you like you’re from Africa. They’re not going to treat you like you’re from Europe. The only time that that card is going to be beneficial is, of course, when you go to Europe. And then, and then second of all, as you mentioned, residency can be revoked. It can be revoked for a variety of reasons. Rules can completely change. But I would always start with, you always want to look first at citizenship, then permanent residency, because that’s, that’s the next most permanent option. And then lastly would be a temporary residency, but the space is changing all the time, so there actually are not that many programs anymore where you can actually make an investment and obtain citizenship pretty much instantly. The main countries where that is still available in the world, there’s five Caribbean countries that have citizenship by investment programs. But there’s also a lot of changes happening in that space which I’m happy to talk about. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:32:13 – 00:32:15]

I see a lot of controversy there. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:32:15 – 00:33:58]

And I’m very happy to be very upfront about what I see and say what a lot of people in the industry won’t say about it because we all like to pretend like nothing’s changing, but things are changing. For citizenship, probably the least expensive program right now and the quickest would be Sao Tome, which is a country in West Africa. It’s a former Portuguese colony. That’s for $95,000 you can make an investment and become a South to main citizen. It’s not a strong passport, but it does offer you another nationality and it is part of the Portuguese speaking community and there are some benefits. But yeah, generally speaking there are not many direct to citizenship programs out there. There are some permanent residency programs out there in Europe that. There are probably two that I think are really good. I think Portugal is problematic and I’m happy to speak about why it’s problematic and why no one’s talking about it. And then we have programs that we’re waiting on. So for example, Argentina has announced that they’re going to be starting a citizenship by investment program hopefully this calendar year. Now that’s going to be extremely exciting for a few reasons. First of all, the Argentine passport is, is actually a very strong passport. It’s a top 20 passport in terms of countries you can get into visa free. Second of all, Argentina is part of Mercosur, which is kind of like what Schengen is in Europe is. Mercosur is a regional bloc in South America where if you’re a citizen of a Mercosur bloc country, you can actually live in the other countries. So it’s giving you access to Argentina, but it’s also giving you access to other countries in South America. For example, if you wanted to go live in, in Uruguay, for example, or in Chile or in Brazil. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:33:58 – 00:34:01]

Oh, wow. So it’s giving you access to a lot of South America. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:34:01 – 00:34:18]

It gives you access to a lot of South America. It’s also very advantageous because Spain has a rule that if you are a resident in Spain for two years and you are from a former Spanish colony, which would include Argentina, you are fast tracked for citizenship. It’s two years. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:34:18 – 00:34:37]

So there’s a way to. There’s a way to, you know, theoretically, if you Got a citizenship by investment in Argentina. You could live in various different places within South America. But also if you ended up getting residency in Spain for a couple of years, you could then parlay that into Spanish citizenship which then gets you access to the whole of Europe. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:34:38 – 00:35:30]

Exactly. And I know I have American friends who for example, they’re fully American, but they had one parent who was maybe born in the Philippines or one parent who was born in Colombia and then they went and just worked in Spain for two years. They got that citizenship through the parents. So through descent, lived there as a Colombian or a Filipino and then obtained Spanish citizenship. So for me I’m extremely excited about Argentina. I think that what’s happening in our space is we’re moving away from Europe and I think it hasn’t, hasn’t 100% started yet. But I believe that the next frontier is really going to be Latin America. It’s going to be Latin America because again, strong passports, still very good access. If you go live in Spain for two years, a pathway to citizenship. And quite frankly there just aren’t that many countries out there offering citizenship right now. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:35:31 – 00:36:58]

I’m excited to announce that Expat wealth has its first sponsor, the Global Financial Planning Institute. The GFPI exists to provide education, community tools, resources and ongoing research for financial planners and other advanced financial professionals working with international and cross border clients in the US And Americans abroad. I’m a GFP Institute fellow and I’ve put all our employees through their GFPI programs when they join us. I’ve met some great people. I’ve learned a ton. It’s a genuine community of internationally minded folk doing their best to serve their clients properly and critically sharing what they know in the oftentimes challenging and ambiguous US cross border environment. And as anyone in this sector will tell you, you’re always learning. So if you work with international clients and or Americans abroad, or if this is an area you’re looking to get into, check out the gfpi@www.gfp.in stute you will be glad you did and I hope to see you there soon. Let me ask you a quick question. Do you know citizenship by investment? So you mentioned a figure before. $95,000. Give me another. We talked about, I think you and I talked about not Paraguay last time, Panama. You pay, you pay a gob of money and it’s an investment. Is it an investment, inverted commas and you’re never seeing that money again or is it actually, is it a real investment and you will get a return on it, you may even get your capital back, or is it just that you’re saying goodbye to that money and it’s gone forever? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:36:58 – 00:37:41]

So I think there are two things one needs to look at. One is there are programs where you make a pure donation and the donation you never see again. And there are other programs where you make an investment and sometimes they, they give you the choice. So I mean, again, I’m happy to speak more about Portugal. It’s been in the news a lot, especially since the law was passed by Parliament. But Portugal gives you the option where you can make a pure donation to a heritage, to the restoration of a heritage site. It’s half, it’s half the cost of the investment option, which is investing into regulated Portuguese funds. But with a fund, of course, there’s the chance of getting a return. So some of these countries, they actually just give you a choice. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:37:42 – 00:37:45]

When you put it into the fund, are you locking it up for five years, 10 years? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:37:45 – 00:39:10]

So again, it depends on the program. Typically it’s a five year lock in period. There are programs where it’s year by year, but your investment is tied, your residency is tied to your investment. So if you pull out in year two, you can, there might be a penalty, but you can. But then you lose your residency. So what I always like to look at when advising people on programs is you want to do the one that’s going to give, that’s going to present the least obligations to you, the, the least onerous to you. So one program that I really like, which not enough people talk about, everyone gets excited about Portugal. I think it’s a problematic program, is Malta. I really think Malta right now is the best program in Europe. The reason why I think Malta is the best program in Europe is because you’re locked in for five years. Either you need to purchase a property in Malta or you need to rent an apartment in Malta. But after five years, you do not have to hold on to that anymore. You can sell your property or you just don’t rent your place anymore and you maintain your permanent residency for life. You just have to go to Malta once every five years to renew your card. I like that. Greece is very different. With Greece, they say you need to purchase a property, but the minute you sell the property, you lose your permanent residency. So I always advise people look at a program that’s going to give you the maximum flexibility so that if you don’t want to hold an investment in that country anymore, you still maintain status. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:39:10 – 00:39:21]

If you have a, if you’re a permanent resident in Malta or Greece through one of these programs. Can you then live elsewhere in Europe or you, you can, you’re confined to that country. It’s not like having a passport. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:39:21 – 00:40:38]

Yeah, that’s another misconception. There are two types of permanent residency in Europe. One is permanent residency. A permanent residency is actually national even though you’re in the European Union. So for example, if you have permanent residency in Portugal or in Malta or in Greece, it means that you can live typically indefinitely in those countries. It does not grant you the right to live and work in other Schengen countries because these are a national status. So you’re still, you’re still typically restricted to 90 days in the Schengen area every six months. So there is another class of permanent residency that’s called long term residency in the eu. It varies by country. You typically get it after you’ve held permanent residency and met other residency requirements for, for five years in an EU country. You then transition to long term residency. Long term residency is very similar to having a green card in the us. You can live in any state you want in the us. It’s very simple. So you could be a long term resident of Malta, but decide that you want to live in Germany, but you can’t do that as a regular permanent resident. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:40:38 – 00:40:54]

Tell me about the Caribbean. So I’ve seen that, I’ve seen a lot of stuff about that in the last few years. A lot of controversy. Tell me, what do you see as the issues around those plans? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:40:55 – 00:42:48]

So I think that when the Caribbean programs were initially introduced, I mean, some of them as far back as the 1980s, they were good. First of all, they were quite inexpensive. It was around the $100,000 mark. They had access to much of Europe visa free. And it was a really, I would say, relatively affordable, strong option for someone who’s from a country with a weak passport. So if you were from Pakistan, you know you needed a visa to travel. It’s one of the weakest passports in the world. You need a visa to travel to so many countries, especially Western countries, and you’re not necessarily treated very well. So here was a route for people at a relatively affordable price then to get a passport with visa free access. They weren’t necessarily looking to live there, but it was more of a travel document. But a lot has changed in time and especially more recently. So the cost of doing those programs, first of all has doubled and sometimes close to tripled. So it’s not such an inexpensive option anymore. The more concerning trends that we’re seeing is that the us, EU and UK are basically indicating that they are going to be revoking visa free access for citizens of this country, these countries, for some of them, it’s already happened. So very recently, Saint Lucia, I’m sorry, the UK revoked visa free access for Saint Lucians. Your Saint Lucia passport doesn’t get you visa, doesn’t get you into the UK anymore without a prior visa arranged. Two Caribbean countries were recently added to the US travel ban list. And the European Union is constantly saying that basically the citizenship by investment programs in the Caribbean are a security risk and basically threatening to take visa free status. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:42:48 – 00:42:58]

Is this just because they think they’ve been too lax? They’ve let anyone in? Are we talking criminals, fraudsters, money laundering? Is that, is that what we’re, is that what’s been levelled at them? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:42:59 – 00:45:19]

Yeah. The concerns expressed by both the US and the European countries are typically around due diligence. They feel that it’s too lax. But you know what, the way that I view it is, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. I think what’s happening is they’re constantly moving the goalposts. They just don’t, they don’t like the idea of these countries having basically complete autonomy over who they grant citizenship to. Even though they share when they’re processing a file, they communicate with Western countries and make sure that these people haven’t been barred from those countries. And they’re not just applying for citizenship for visa free access. But basically they’re sounding the alarm bells. They’re saying, we don’t feel comfortable with this. We don’t think that the due diligence is good enough. I mean, the Caribbean countries are also now speaking about introducing a residency requirement, introducing a citizenship test or some type of a civic course that you have to do. So the way that I see it, the Caribbean countries, they’re becoming much more expensive, potentially much more onerous in terms of like, you don’t just pay the money, you’re actually possibly going to have to spend time there, a certain amount of time there in the first five years. And then what happens if they lose their visa free status? Then you paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a weak passport that you actually had to do so many things to get. And you could have just for a fraction of the price, just gotten a Sao Tome passport, which also wouldn’t have given you visa free access to Europe. It would have been another document, but it would have been really quick at a really much lower price and essentially the same result. So My prediction is, I think it’s possible that especially when Argentina, when Argentina launches it is going to severely hamper the Caribbean programs because people are saying if we’re already paying all this money, we’d rather just pay a little bit more and get Argentina, which has the visa free access, which gives us, we actually would maybe want to live in some of these South American countries. It gives us the access to Spain, to Spanish citizenship. So I think what it’s going to do is it’s basically going to force the Caribbean countries to bring their prices down significantly because they’re going to lose some so much value when they lose their visa free status to Europe. And so the question is, do you want to pay three times the price right now, not knowing what’s going to happen? I don’t think that’s not the one that I would go for personally right now. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:45:19 – 00:45:27]

No, it doesn’t sound like it. Right, well, I’ve got to ask you then, because it’s such a hot topic, particularly Americans right now, what’s your reservations with Portugal? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:45:28 – 00:48:18]

There have been political changes in Portugal. Voters have been very unhappy. They felt priced out. And the political leaders in Portugal have felt enormous pressure to really now, after inviting people in so openly to actually place restrictions on all types of foreigners who move to the country. Before I was even in this industry several years ago, there was an option where you could get a golden visa in Portugal through purchasing real estate. People felt that that was pricing the locals out of the market. So the government got rid of that. So there was no more real estate option. It was either a donation to for heritage sites or it was purchasing or it was investing in regulated Portuguese funds. But there have been further changes. So the way it used to work in Portugal is you would obtain temporary residency for five years. You needed to spend a little bit of time in the country during those five years to just renew your residency. But after five years, you could apply for Portuguese citizenship. So essentially it was a five year Runway. Your five years started ticking the moment you submitted your application. So even though there were backlogs and it got to the point where people were waiting several years for their applications to be approved, the five years started ticking the minute you submitted. There was a new law that was passed yesterday by the Portuguese Parliament. It still needs to be signed by the president, but I’m expecting it’s going to go through, which is completely changing this. So basically the first thing that’s probably going to change is your countdown is now going to be from time of approval, not time of submission. So again, if you have a situation where there’s huge backlogs, you’re waiting several years for approval, your clock doesn’t even start ticking for several years. That’s the first thing. The second thing is they’re changing citizenship. If you’re not from a point, Portuguese speaking country, the citizenship pathway is being changed from five years to 10 years. So you’re adding up a couple of years for processing until the clock starts ticking, likely then five. You’ll have to maintain that for five years for permanent residency, but again, that only allows you to live in Portugal and then after that another five years for citizenship. So, you know, we’re talking at least a 12 year horizon, given the state of politics and populism in the world. That’s also assuming that the law won’t just change again. What happened now is Portugal decided not to grandfather in people who were already residents and were close to getting citizenship. So let’s say you. Let’s say you were four years in and you had one more year to go before you could apply for Portuguese citizenship. They’re saying, nope, we’re applying the new rules to you, not the old rules in which you entered the program. So if the law was to change again, they probably also still wouldn’t even grandfather you in, even with a 10 year horizon. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:48:18 – 00:48:20]

Just too much risk, right? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:48:20 – 00:49:13]

I think it’s a lot of risk and it’s very expensive. And if, I mean, and again, I just can’t predict 10 to 12 years from now what Portuguese law is going to say around citizenship. They can make naturalization even harder. So if you’re just looking for residency in Europe, there are much better programs that are quicker, that are friendlier. They’re not citizenship plays, but they’re permanent residency plays that you get instantly. So that’s my view on Portugal. People are still going to tell you Portugal’s great because again, Portugal sold very well in our industry. But actually we have a lot of policy uncertainty. There’s so much risk with the new law, but on top of it, don’t forget the president hasn’t signed the new law. So we’re still in limbo. We still have policy uncertainty right now. Do you really want to spend over €500,000 for uncertainty when there are other programs which offer you certainty? 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:49:13 – 00:50:09]

I think your point about that and the direction of travel in the world, which, as I said earlier, I think is just escalating. I think that’s a great point, Dan. Look, this has been super interesting and listeners, we haven’t even got to half our conversation. But this whole citizenship by investment is kind of new to me and I really want to just explore some of this in a bit more detail. So what I’d like to ask and put you on the spot here, here is will you come back and can we do a second part to this where we can, where we can get to the, the rest of our conversation? I didn’t want to just gloss over this stuff because if I don’t, if this is new to me, I suspect a lot of my audience, which is expats who have moved, mostly work expats, but, but, but having people who have moved once who are now awakened to this idea of like, oh, you know what, I might want to go over there, I might want this, I might want a plan B. So I wanted to just dive into this in a bit more detail with you. So thank you for that. Dan. Dan, where can people find you? 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:50:10 – 00:50:25]

People can find me on LinkedIn. So it’s Dan, Dan and then Brotman. B R O T M A N. I’m also on Instagram at Dan Brotman and I love speaking about global travel, living abroad, as well as just citizenships and residencies. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:50:25 – 00:50:40]

Yeah, me too. Well, guys, check him out. Dan, thank you so much. I know we have to let you go to another, another appointment now, but you’ve committed, you’re in. We’re gonna, we’d love to have you back to pick this up again and, and look at what’s, what’s changing in this, in this arena. 

 

Dan Brotman: [00:50:40 – 00:50:42]

Thanks for having me, Richard. 

 

Richard Taylor: [00:50:43 – 00:51:40]

All right, folks, that’s another episode of Expat wealth under Our Belts. Thank you for listening. I appreciate it and I appreciate you. If you’re enjoying the show and would like to support the mission, which is to help ambitious expats thrive in America and ask you to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and also consider leaving a rating and review. This stuff really does matter. Please help us get this information to the people who need it, that is to your fellow expats. Just a quick reminder that this show is brought to you by Plan First Wealth. We are a US based financial planner and wealth manager and we help successful American and international families living across the US to make the most of their opportunity and ultimately to retire happier. If you’d like to know more about how we might be able to help you, you can find us on our website, www.planfirstwealth.com or you can look me up on LinkedIn. Do get in touch. We’d love to hear from you. As always, thank you to the podcast guys for their help producing this episode and the entire show. See you next week.