Leaving the USA: Relinquishing Green Card / Renouncing US Citizenship – Beware The Exit Tax | Ask an Expert with Virginia La Torre Jeker, J.D.

Many green card holders mistakenly believe they are no longer liable for US taxes after expiration. Properly relinquishing a green card requires completing Form I-407. If this is news to you (or you’ve never heard of this form) then you better listen to this week’s Ask An Expert.

Richard Taylor is joined once again by Virginia La Torre Jeker, J.D. –  a member of the NYS Bar since 1984 and preeminent US tax professional. Together they talk about what green card holders and US citizens need to know before giving up their status. They break down the risks of becoming a “covered expatriate,” how the exit tax works, and why signing the wrong form at the border can have big consequences.

Plus, Virginia shares tips on how to plan ahead to avoid major tax issues. One of those is the exit tax: covered expatriates are treated as if they sold all their assets the day they expatriate – even if they haven’t. In the case of IRAs and similar retirement accounts, the IRS treats the entire balance as a taxable distribution, potentially triggering a tax bill without the expat actually accessing any of the funds.

If you’ve got a million dollars in an IRA, the IRS is going to treat it like you’ve just received a million dollars of IRA income – taxable at the highest rate, up to 37%. That hurts.

We’re the Brits in America is affiliated with Plan First Wealth LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Plan First Wealth.

Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investments involve risk and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial adviser and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed herein. Plan First Wealth does not provide any tax and/or legal advice and strongly recommends that listeners seek their own advice in these areas.

About Richard

Richard Taylor is a British expat, dual citizen (UK & US). Originally from Bolton, he now lives in Greenwich, CT, where Plan First Wealth has its head office.

As the firm’s leader, Richard launched Taylor & Taylor, now Plan First Wealth, and continues to fuel the firm’s growth. Richard is a Chartered Financial Planner (UK – CII) in addition to holding the IMC (CFA UK) and Series 65 (US – FINRA).

Connect with Richard on LinkedIn

Transcript:

 

Richard Taylor:
[00:00:15 – 00:02:22]
Welcome to the we’re the Brits in America podcast, a Plan First Wealth podcast dedicated to helping ambitious expatriates and first generation immigrants thrive in America.

I’m your host Richard Taylor and Plan First Wealth is the business I founded and run today and we work with successful American and international families living across the US Helping them to make the most of their opportunity living and working in America. However, while Plan First Wealth LLC is an SEC registered Investment Advisor, the views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views and positions of Plan First Wealth. Information presented is for educational purposes only.

All right, let’s get back to this week’s show.

 

Welcome to our Ask An Expert show where I invite a fellow professional in the cross border space to come in and talk to me about the issues we think expats and immigrants in America need to be aware of if they are going to thrive here. My guest today is the returning champ, Virginia La Torre Jeker. For those of you who still don’t know, Virginia is a US International Tax attorney, a member of the New York Bar since 1984 and and admitted to practice before the U.S. tax Court. And she has oodles of experience dealing with all aspects of international tax and cross border transactions. Now, if you haven’t already listened to it, you can go back and listen to our first podcast together. That’s episode 37 where we explored how taxpayers can assert reasonable cause to try and have IRS penalties abated. Tldr. It’s not as easy as you think it is. And Virginia has very kindly agreed to come back on today and talk about exiting the US Especially for those on a green card. As ever, this is way more complicated and involved than people realize, with serious, really serious potential consequences. Or as I like to call them, landmines for some people, if this is mismanaged. So if you’re on a green card and think you may one day leave the U.S. or if you’re a U.S. citizen and you think you may one day leave, buckle up because you’re in for a bumpy ride. So without further ado, let’s get into this. Hi Virginia, welcome back to we’re the Brits in America podcast.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:02:22 – 00:02:26]
Thanks Richard. It’s great to be back. I always enjoy our talks.

Richard Taylor:
[00:02:27 – 00:02:55]
Likewise. Our last one was great and I’m, I’m, I’m thrilled you’ve, you’ve, you’ve agreed to come back on and, and I hope it’s the second of many more so as I didn’t reference it in the intro there. But for those of you still don’t know, Virginia has a fantastic US International tax blog that everyone who, who operates in this niche is aware of and follows avidly. And there is a, a wealth of topics on there for us to get into.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:02:55 – 00:03:21]
Www.us-tax.org ww.us hyphen which is a little-tax.org O R G that’s correct. And I was just speaking to someone literally the past half hour ago who told me that he started reading my tax blog in 2012 when he was in law school and he’s been following it ever since. That really made me happy, I’m sure.

Richard Taylor:
[00:03:22 – 00:04:00]
Yeah, no, it and I, I won’t rehash everything I said in the first podcast and anyone who wants a full, you know, my intro and then Virginia explaining her background and experience should go Back to episode 37 and have a full listen. But this, go and check out this tax blog, they’re digestible and if you want to go more into things, they’re full of links to other blogs and external sites. So if you, you can go as deep or as surface level as you want and I include the layperson in this, you know, although it’s a motivated layperson who wades through U.S. tax law, I’ll say that I agree.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:04:00 – 00:04:40]
I think that’s a good way to put it. A lot of lay people who read it have said to me that they understood what I was talking about. And for me that’s the greatest compliment. Because US Tax is so highly complex and so many of the things you read, you, you just don’t understand them. And hopefully my blog does achieve this digestibility readability for the average person who’s trying to learn. But yet it’s not, it’s not sugar coated, it’s not leaving out the important details. We’ve got plenty of hyperlinks if you need to dig further. So I think that’s very important when people choose a source of information.

Richard Taylor:
[00:04:40 – 00:05:18]
Agreed. So if you’re an expat, an immigrant in America, you want to thrive here. Check out this blog, check out our past podcast 37 and let’s get into this one. So we are here to talk about leaving the US which, you know, for people who Listen to this podcast. It’s all about helping expats and immigrants thrive in America. So they might be thinking, well, you know, why? Why are you talking about leaving America if you want us to thrive here? If we’re leaving, what’s it matter? Well, as we’ll get into in a second, you can do great work in America. You can do great things for yourself and your family. And if you mismanage your exit, you can wreck it pretty quickly. So where should we start?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:05:19 – 00:07:44]
Well, let’s talk about what do we mean by expatriation? People giving up their U.S. status because we have U.S. citizens who are giving up citizenship. And I’m guessing most of your audience is not really in that category. Your category will probably be, gee, I’ve been in the U.S. i’ve been on my Visa. I love it here. We want to get a green card. We got a green card. And they’re not even really thinking about leaving the US Maybe at this point. But they need to understand what’s down the road for them if they do decide to give up the green card and return to the UK or move to another country. We don’t know. So many people are under the misimpression that because their green card has expired from a US Tax perspective, that they are. I mean, from an immigration perspective, they believe that it’s also finished from a US Tax point of view. And that’s not the case at all. So even if your green card has expired, you still are responsible to file tax returns and pay taxes on your worldwide income unless you properly relinquish that green card. So we can talk about gee, what does it mean to properly relinquish it? Typically, the person will be voluntarily giving up the green card, and he needs to complete a Form I407 to do that. And in the old days, pre Covid, you could actually go to a consulate or an embassy outside of the US and hand that I 407 form with your green card in. At the consulate, you would get a stamped receipt back. So you knew you had proof that you now had given up the green card. Since COVID days, they’re only accepting it by mail or courier. And people have to be very careful with that because you have issues of gee, you know, when did I officially give up the green card? Is it when I put it in the registered mail and got my registered mail receipt certified mail? When, if I give it to a courier, is that going to work the same way that it’s when I get that receipt back? So there’s a lot of, a little bit of thorny issues that go on with giving up that green card officially.

Richard Taylor:
[00:07:45 – 00:07:50]
Now, is there any law or precedence on that? Is there an agreed upon date?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:07:51 – 00:08:51]
Well, you know, Richard, of course, you’ve been dealing with me and US Tax for a while. We do have regulations, but the regulations are very old. And what it talks about is, you know, when you abandon it, giving it up by certified mail or giving a letter or giving it up at the consulate and you’re like, well, this doesn’t exactly fit in. Maybe my, maybe my country doesn’t have a certified male. That’s the equivalent of what the US Has. So what do I do? You do have a regulation, but there’s things that kind of slip in between the cracks. So you have to get the best advice depending on where you are giving it up. You know, if you can actually go to the consulate or the embassy and say, gee, I have to give it up here because I need to as well apply for a visa, maybe at the consulate, they may accept it.

Richard Taylor:
[00:08:51 – 00:09:00]
Can you give up your green card before you actually exit the U.S. so if I know I’m leaving next month, can I send off the i407 before I leave?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:09:01 – 00:09:04]
No, because then you’re going to be in the US Illegally.

Richard Taylor:
[00:09:05 – 00:09:06]
Okay. Of course, yeah. Right.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:09:06 – 00:09:10]
That’s why outside of the US Is where you have to give it up.

Richard Taylor:
[00:09:10 – 00:10:15]
Just, just to put this into, into some real life context for people. And I’ve had this conversation a month ago with someone, so this is happening all the time. I have had so many conversations where we’ve had a client or a prospective client say, yeah, you know, my green card, my green card, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna go back to the UK And I’ll keep it in a drawer and eventually it’ll expire. And they don’t realize that without going through this formal process, even if they are not living in the US Unless they’ve formally given up their green card, they are still supposed to be filing U.S. tax returns and paying if any are due U. S taxes. And by not doing, they’re in non compliance. And then, I mean there’s financial repercussions to that. Potentially there’s probably future entry into the US Repercussions to that. I should have to think how many expired green cards are sat in drawers around the world right now with people who have not given up their US Citizen, US Permanent resident status.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:10:16 – 00:11:10]
I know what those people need to do because we see them a lot. What those people need to do is not only are they having this continued problem of US Tax liability, but they are having as well continued time that they are holding the green card. And if they reach what’s called eight tax years, holding that green card, that counts right in the drawer, it counts as holding the green card for eight tax years, then they have the possibility of being this horrible creature called a covered expatriate when they do give up the green card. So that’s a big problem. It’s not only the continuing tax liability, but they are increasing their time as being treated as holding the card to reach that eight year threshold, which is big trouble.

Richard Taylor:
[00:11:10 – 00:11:19]
That that had not occurred to me. So I tell you what, that’s a perfect segue. Let’s, let’s introduce covered expats to people, right?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:11:19 – 00:15:34]
Okay. So a covered expatriate is someone who has either given up his US Citizenship or given up a green card that’s been held for a significant amount of time. Specifically eight tax years out of the past 15 years. And I just want to say that eight tax years can be reached very quickly. So if you get your green card on December 28th and you think, well, that doesn’t count because I haven’t held it a year yet. That counts as a full tax year, December 28th through December 31st, and then you get into the next tax year, January 1st through December 31st. So the year you get your green card and the year you give it up are two separate tax years. So you only need like six years in the middle. And that’s very easy to reach for. I’m sure many of the people that you are dealing with, you know, Right. So not everyone who gives up their citizenship or gives up the long term residency will be treated as a covered expatriate. If they meet any one of three tests, then this taint of being a covered expatriate will hit them. And let’s go through what those three tests are again. You only need to meet one. So if on the expatriation date you have a net worth of $2 million or more, you will be a covered expatriate. Net worth means your worldwide assets minus your worldwide liabilities. That’s what net worth means. And they take the fair market value of your assets. So you may be thinking, oh, when I bought my apartment in New York, it wasn’t that expensive. It’s worth so much more now. But I use the lower. No, fair market value as of the expatriation date is what you look at. So that’s the first test. The other test is the. They look at the past five years of your tax liabilities. So what were you paying in tax over each of those five years? And you add those numbers up and divide by five to get the average amount of income tax that you were paying. And if that average comes over, let’s see, we have it indexed for inflation, and the number for 2025 is $206,000. So if your average income tax being paid over the past five years comes up to that threshold of $206,000, then you’re a covered expatriate. The other test, which is one that hangs people up quite often, is that you cannot certify, you don’t certify under penalties of perjury, that you’ve been fully tax compliant for the five years before you’ve expatriated. And this is where the person who’s kept the green card in the drawer has the problem, because he may have thought, I don’t need to file. I’m gone, I’m back in the UK or I’m wherever, and my green card has expired five years ago, 10 years ago, I don’t need to do anything. Not true. You are still on the hook for the tax, the taxes and the filing. So what those people need to do is clearly get very good tax advice, see if they can join a program where they can file the late returns without penalties. You know, the IRS does have streamlined programs that might work for them. The issue there is you are only technically filing three years of back returns, three years of late returns. Under those streamlined programs, the person who’s expatriating needs five years of tax compliance. I’ve successfully gotten five years through without any issue. But you always want to check with the irs, are you still accepting five years? And they’re typically not answering the phone or not getting back to you on that. So it’s up to the client, you know, to understand the risks. Do they want to take that chance and submit five years in and hope that they won’t have any problems? But they do need to get that fixed up.

Richard Taylor:
[00:15:34 – 00:15:44]
Wow. So the one that we see will catch most people out here is a $2 million. Now, that can be split between husband and wife. Right?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:15:44 – 00:17:11]
And so 2 million each entitled. Each person is entitled to the 2 million. But if the husband, let’s say, has $3 million worth of stuff and the wife does. Doesn’t have anything, and they’re both expatriating, they can’t say, well, it’s 1.5 each and we’re fine. No, it’s per person. And one of the issues that often comes up is people believe because they, they own the asset, it’s only in their name, they think, well, I own it, it’s mine. I have to deal with putting that in, in my net worth calculation. But a lot of times, unbeknownst to them, they may have community property issues and they only own 50%. The other person owns 50%. And this, this issue of community property can get very, very tricky because if someone has lived in a community property jurisdiction, you know, many countries have community property rules and that they’re all different, they may be applying for the time that the person lived there, those community property rules. So you’re going to need local council to get advice about ownership of assets. Sometimes if you’ve been, you know, in a complicated situation jurisdictionally, the plot thickens as ever. The plot thickens as it always does.

Richard Taylor:
[00:17:12 – 00:18:06]
I’m thinking two things. I’m thinking the people we work, we deal with here and I think what catches them out the most? The $2 million. You come to America, you come, you come. The people we see, you come because you’ve had a great opportunity, a great job offer. You come to America, you get paid more, you save more, you build more of your retirement accounts. People who are deciding to go back to the UK or elsewhere to retire generally, fingers crossed, have got more than 2 million. That’s a net worth. That’s a good thing. But it could cause complications. The one I hadn’t truly. And the one about having to certify five years, that really is. Becomes a trap for the people who wouldn’t be covered. Expats who don’t have the 2 million but who maybe have missed out on informational reporting, haven’t done, haven’t had a cross border tax advisor because your tax tax returns could arguably be considered incomplete, in which case you can’t or you.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:18:06 – 00:18:16]
Shouldn’T sign that under you’re not fully tax compliant. If you’re missing out on those. Absolutely. And your entire statute of limitations for the entire return is still open.

Richard Taylor:
[00:18:16 – 00:18:44]
Yeah. And then we’ve got the, then we’ve got the people who have. And I hadn’t. This had never occurred to me. The people who have left who have not given up their green card and who, because by definition aren’t in tax compliance because they haven’t been. They had, they weren’t aware they were meant to be filing tax returns and if any were applicable, paying US taxes. So they’ve. And if their asset Base has been growing in that time. Maybe they’ve gone from, maybe they’ve crossed that 2 million barrier.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:18:44 – 00:18:45]
Yes.

Richard Taylor:
[00:18:46 – 00:18:54]
And as we’re about to talk about, this is a problem. So let’s talk about the consequences of being a covered expat.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:18:54 – 00:19:00]
Okay? Now, just so people don’t lose hope, because remember, Richard, our motto, hope springs eternal.

Richard Taylor:
[00:19:00 – 00:19:01]
Hope springs eternal.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:19:01 – 00:21:42]
Hope. There are planning techniques. So for the guy that’s over $2 million, maybe we can use a gifting plan to. He can gift certain things away to get himself under the 2 million. Okay, but they’ve got to be bona fide gifts. But one thing I want to point out, this is new. Expatriation is clearly, clearly in the IRS radar. First of all, starting in 2019, they had what’s called the campaign for expatriations. A campaign in the IRS means they need to use their resources very carefully. And so they are looking at what areas can we get the most tax dollars and the most penalties from? Because that’s where we’re going to put our resources. And we will call these areas campaigns. And expatriation has been a campaign item. So they are looking more closely at people who are expatriating and checking, you know, auditing them more frequently. So that’s one thing. The other thing, when we talk about the possibility of gifting the latest IRS form for when, after you’ve expatriated, you need to fill out a form called Form 8854, which essentially tells the IRS, Yes, I’ve been fully tax compliant. You have to check a box for the past five years. I don’t have a $2 million net worth and I didn’t meet that threshold of income tax liability over the past five years. So this form 8854 has been around for a very long time. But if you look at the latest one, there’s a brand new question on the form and the question is whether your financial situation, assets or liabilities has changed significantly in, in the five year period prior to expatriation. And when you look at what does that mean? What do they mean by this question? Has it, you know, changed significantly? And you look at the instructions, they say, if you had a net worth over $2 million at any time in this five year period, but on your expatriation date, you are under 2 million, that is a significant change. Please explain. So this is brand new and this tells me IRS is really looking and we may have challenges to our gifting planning.

Richard Taylor:
[00:21:42 – 00:21:43]
Wow.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:21:43 – 00:21:55]
We may, I don’t Know, I’m just pointing it out as this is new and this tells us something. Every time, every time the IRS comes up with something new, you have to think of why, why are they doing this?

Richard Taylor:
[00:21:55 – 00:22:15]
Even if you can’t avoid being a covered expat, you, you can avoid the worst consequences of not knowing you’re a covered expat and then, and then suffering the consequences by out of the blue. But at surprise, say when you’re trying to come back into the US when you can’t do anything about it. That’s. That was, that was news to me as well. But this is, this is.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:22:16 – 00:22:28]
Yes. I think a lot of people don’t even realize it yet, but I’m always checking the draft forms and it was on the draft form. So now I don’t know if they have finalized this form, but I’m. That question’s not going away.

Richard Taylor:
[00:22:29 – 00:22:33]
Do not leave the US without consulting professionals.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:22:33 – 00:24:39]
You’ve got to get the right advice. You absolutely have to get the right advice. So to just recap. So we were looking at the covered expat status can occur with one of three tests. One is the net worth. Two is the income tax liability. If your income tax liability exceeds that threshold, there’s no planning you can do to get rid of that because your tax liability is what it is. Unless some big error was made in your tax returns and you should have been paying way less tax and you want to amend, that’s a different story. But typically, if your tax returns have been done correctly and you’re above that threshold for income tax liability, you can’t change that. Okay, so then you have to wait until maybe you had a loss here and you know, you recalculate and maybe you’re below the threshold, it might delay your expatriation. Unless you say, well, I’m a covered expat and I’ll live with the consequences, which we will discuss. And meeting the full tax compliance for five years prior. As I said, hope springs eternal. The IRS has programs. Get a good tax adviser, get it fixed, and exit cleanly. So what happens if you’re a covered expat? Let’s talk about that. If you’re a covered expat, they want to punish you and not only you, but people that you love. They have something called an exit tax. It’s this mark to market regime where the covered expatriate is treated as if he’s sold all of his assets worldwide. Everything he owns in the world is treated as sold and he has to pay tax on this pretend gain that he’s earned and most of the time it will be capital gain. So depending how long the asset’s been held, it may be long term capital gain which is taxed at a favorable rate. But you may already know, Richard, about the net investment income tax.

Richard Taylor:
[00:24:39 – 00:24:40]
Yep.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:24:40 – 00:25:34]
The 3.8% that will also apply on top of the exit tax, assuming you meet the net investment income tax thresholds, which most covered expat probably would. So you’re talking about, you know, almost a 24% tax on this pretend gain. You don’t have the proceeds from any sale, so you may not have cash to pay this, this tax. That’s a problem. And then you have to consider not everything you have is treated as sold. So certain, there’s certain assets that will give you bigger headaches. For example, so if you have specified tax deferred accounts like an IRA or a Coverdell, those are treated as if it’s. The full amount is distributed out to you.

Richard Taylor:
[00:25:35 – 00:25:47]
I’ve got million dollars in ira. I expatriate, I’m subject, I’m a code expat. They’re going to say, oh, we’ve just, we haven’t. But essentially we’re going to treat it like you’ve just received a million dollars of IRA income.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:25:47 – 00:25:47]
That’s right.

Richard Taylor:
[00:25:47 – 00:25:56]
Taxable at the highest rate, which is like 39, 37% right now. Right. Most I know it’s depends where you are, but essentially, yes.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:25:56 – 00:26:04]
Gone, gone. The good thing is you won’t have the early distribution penalty applied to you.

Richard Taylor:
[00:26:04 – 00:26:05]
So I can’t access it.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:26:05 – 00:26:09]
At least be grateful for small things.

Richard Taylor:
[00:26:09 – 00:26:35]
So at least I can, at least I can access my IRA to pay it. Yeah, I’ve also got, let’s say I’ve got 5 million dollar real estate. I haven’t sold that real estate and I’m gonna have to pay 25, 24 on the gain. Hopefully I have that in cash. Otherwise you better have to sell it. But at least with the IRA, you’re going to get walloped at 30 up to 37%. But at least I can surrender my IRA without paying the early surrender penalty.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:26:35 – 00:29:01]
Okay, that’s actually a good question. So if you’re treated as selling it, getting the distribution, then you don’t get the early distribution penalty. But I think if you actually take the money, you may have that early distribution penalty. Yes. Because the early distribution penalty does not apply if it’s deemed distributed to you. But that’s, you know, separate under the exit tax regime that they’re giving you this benefit. But if you actually take it and you’re under the age, then you can have the early distribution penalty. So that’s, that’s not fun. Let’s move on to another asset that’s very troublesome and that’s the pension plan. So if you have a US pension plan, because a lot of people may have those once they’ve been here, a U.S. pension plan that will be with a U.S. administrator and they will permit you to call pay as you go. If you’re a covered expat, if you file the proper paperwork with the US Administrator and tell them, hey, I’m a covered expat, here’s this form W8CE. I’ve got to tell you to withhold 30% of whatever you’re going to pay out to me. So you will, as a covered expat, be punished and always have to pay 30% tax on the distribution from that US pension plan, provided you’ve sent the US administrator the proper documents, etc. If you have a foreign pension plan that will not work for you, you are deemed to have received the full value of your foreign pension plan and you have to pay tax on that as if you got it. So, you know, they’re going to look at valuation principles, maybe under actuarial tables or depending on the terms of the plan, what it says, but you’re going to be deemed to have some present value and paid out to you and you will have to pay tax because you’ve, you’ll be forced to include that amount in your income. Well, you’re not going to have the cash for that.

Richard Taylor:
[00:29:01 – 00:29:07]
And you simply cannot access some of these before a certain age.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:29:08 – 00:29:08]
Correct?

Richard Taylor:
[00:29:09 – 00:29:11]
No penalty, no nothing. Just not getting the money.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:29:12 – 00:29:54]
I know, and I don’t know what happens. Of course it depends on the terms of the plan. But let’s just say you’re a covered expat and they figure out the actuarial value and you have to include a million dollars in your income and pay the exit tax on that. Ugh. I mean, it’s going to be taxed at the 37%, assuming you’re up there, which you will be. So what happens if two years later, God forbid, you passed away, do you. What happens to the pension? Like, do you still. Does your estate get it? Do you completely lose it? It’s going to depend on what the plan says. But it’s too late. You’ve already paid.

Richard Taylor:
[00:29:54 – 00:30:02]
If you’re computing. If you’re going through this and you’re subject to the exit tax, have you, by definition already left the U.S.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:30:05 – 00:30:25]
Well, if you’re giving up your green card, yes, you will. Typically you’ll be out of the US you’ll have surrendered the green card abroad and that will be your expatriation date. Okay. If you’re a citizen and you’ve given up your citizenship for sure you’ll be out of the U.S. physically, you will be out Virginia.

Richard Taylor:
[00:30:25 – 00:30:56]
What, what we’re referring to here is a phantom tax. Right? So, so no asset, no assets are sold. It’s just, it’s a paper exercise that mark to market to market, that hurts you an awful lot. But you’re deemed to have sold your real estate, you’re deemed to have liquidated your pensions even though you haven’t. Even if you can’t access them now, you’re at this point, You’ve left the U.S. you’re probably a tax resident of another country.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:30:57 – 00:30:57]
That’s right.

Richard Taylor:
[00:30:57 – 00:31:19]
So you’re in the UK and you haven’t sold any of these assets, you haven’t done any prior planning, you haven’t been able to access them. You get, you get hit with a 24 tax upon exit, a phantom tax for the capital gains get hit with up to 37% on the deemed distribution of your retirement accounts, but all those accounts remain intact because you can’t access them. You haven’t sold the property.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:31:20 – 00:31:20]
Correct.

Richard Taylor:
[00:31:20 – 00:32:00]
Five years, 10 years, two. What, whatever it is down the line as a resident of the UK or wherever, Canada, wherever. You decide to access your pension, you decide to sell your property, you’re going to pay local tax. So you’re going to pay UK capital gains tax on the sale of that property. You’re going to pay Canadian capital gains tax on the sale of that property. You’re going to pay UK income tax on your pension distributions and your retirement account distributions up to 40, 45%. And because the US exit tax was a phantom tax, am I right in thinking you’re not going to get any relief under the treaty for that? As far as I’m aware.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:32:00 – 00:32:03]
Correct. As far as I’m aware, you get nothing.

Richard Taylor:
[00:32:03 – 00:32:08]
This means like distributions on pensions are going to get effectively taxed at like 70, 80%.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:32:08 – 00:32:15]
It’s, it’s horrible. Foreign pensions, that’s why they’re called this, the spawn of Satan. I mean, they’re really bad news.

Richard Taylor:
[00:32:17 – 00:32:22]
Do you think? My logic follows there is that I’ve arrived at a place where.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:32:22 – 00:32:52]
No, you’ve got it right. Unfortunately, you have it right. So what people need to do really is see what kind of planning is possible to at least try and make me not a covered expat, okay? Because then you avoid all of these problems, all right? And many times with proper planning, you know, you can escape that. But if you don’t do any planning, forget about it. It’s very easy to get to a $2 million net worth Virginia wife.

Richard Taylor:
[00:32:52 – 00:33:09]
What if I’m one of those people who listens to this and thinks, I’ve got a green card sat in the car, in the drawer, I’m worth over 2 million. I’ve got retirement accounts, I’ve left. I can’t do any planning. You can come into compliance, but is there a way you’re still gonna be subject to the exit?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:33:09 – 00:33:29]
Well, coming into compliance, you can still do planning because you haven’t officially given up the green card. Okay, okay, okay, you’ve left, but as far as the US Is concerned, you’re still on the tax hook. So you can come into compliance and in the meantime be doing the planning.

Richard Taylor:
[00:33:29 – 00:33:29]
Okay?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:33:29 – 00:33:34]
Yes. It’s not because you physically left that you’re in trouble.

Richard Taylor:
[00:33:34 – 00:33:36]
Okay? Oh, okay.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:33:36 – 00:35:01]
Now we might have a problem. And this is, this is an important point for those people that have it in the drawer. Let’s say they need to come back to the U.S. they’re going to have a business meeting or, or something, a wedding, whatever it is. Oh, great, I still have my green card. I’ll, you know, maybe I’ll, I can get in. And the green card, they’re looking at it when you come in and they say, wait a minute, you know this is expired, or you haven’t been here, even though you know it hasn’t technically expired, you haven’t been here because we see in our records you haven’t come for three years or five years or whatever it is. And they, they argue with you and say you are no longer entitled to the green card, so they want to take it from you at the airport. What do we do when they want to take it from you at the airport? And they sound very threatening and overbearing. Most people cave into that and it’s like, okay, what do you want me to do? And they say, well, here’s this Form I407. Just sign this saying you’re voluntarily giving up your green card and no problems, we’ll let you in as a visitor or whatever. They make it sound rosy and nice. So the people sign the I407 at the border at the airport and give up the green card. Well, now they’ve expatriated from a tax perspective, done over.

Richard Taylor:
[00:35:01 – 00:35:10]
So that’s your date or the date before done, that’s it, consequences be damned. You’re. You just got to deal with them. Yikes.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:35:11 – 00:36:07]
So the person that’s in that position, first of all, he shouldn’t be going to the US without understanding he has this potential problem. But if it happens, don’t sign at the border and say, I want, I’m entitled to a hearing before an administrative law judge to determine if I have given up or not. And they will set a date for the hearing. And then that person can at least contact me or some tax advisor and get help to come into compliance to fix their mask, to get the, under the 2 million net worth, whatever it is, to try and mitigate. Because when he goes before the administrative law judge, they may say, you know what you did give up, you’ve abandoned it. So when they sign the order that he’s, you know, administratively determined to have given up the, the green card, and.

Richard Taylor:
[00:36:07 – 00:36:34]
That’S your expert, if a judge stamps out on that day, that becomes your expatriation date. But you have a window between not signing at the border and that judge determining you have a window to, to take some sort of preventative action, something. But, but if you, if you take that action, if you get to the border, this happens to you and you refuse to sign, I’m right in thinking you’re not getting into the U.S. at that point, they’re turning you around and put you on a plane back home.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:36:34 – 00:37:01]
No, not necessarily. You know, there’s different scenarios that can happen. So for example, if the person, it depends so much on the person’s case. If the individual has gone overseas and has what’s called a reentry permit, you may have heard of those. So when people have a green card and they get a job working abroad, let’s say the US Employer says, hey, we want to send you to, you.

Richard Taylor:
[00:37:01 – 00:37:07]
Know, South Africa, Mexico. I had a client who recently South Africa something.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:37:08 – 00:38:48]
And so he says, okay, you know, no problem. And he says, but, you know, I have my green card. I want to make sure I’m not going to lose it when I’m trying to come back. Then you get what’s called a reentry permit. And I believe under the reentry permit, you are allowed to be outside of the US for two years. So if you have a reentry permit, even if that’s expired, you’ve at least done something to show the border control and say, you know, I had a reentry permit. Oh, yeah, I realize it’s expired, but you know, my job extended longer than they thought. And, you know, the guys may be like, oh, well, you know, okay, you better watch out next time. You better get another reentry permit or you better get it together. So depending what you’ve got, if you can say, look, I’ve always been filing my U.S. tax returns. I’ve not abandoned my residency. I’ve been filing as a US Person, whatever you can say, I have a lease on my apartment in New York. It’s still valid. If you have various points that can show you have maintained your residency, even if it’s not perfect, you may get in just from that. Having something, having a little file folder with whatever evidence you can pull together to say, I haven’t given up my, my U.S. residency, that will be helpful to you. They may let you in under what’s called a conditional stay or something. There’s different scenarios. I’m not an immigration lawyer, but I have read up on this a little bit and had a little bit of experience with it where it doesn’t mean just because you won’t sign that, that you’re going to be put back on the plane.

Richard Taylor:
[00:38:48 – 00:38:49]
Okay, okay.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:38:51 – 00:38:51]
But.

Richard Taylor:
[00:38:51 – 00:39:05]
Wow. That, that. You just need to not sign that. I 407. And I can, I can totally imagine the situation. You’re blindsided by this at the border. You’ve got no idea. You’re told, sign this and you can go in. And unwittingly, unwittingly, you’ve.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:39:05 – 00:39:07]
Yes, that’s the problem.

Richard Taylor:
[00:39:07 – 00:39:12]
You’ve wrecked the consequences of that. Don’t bear thinking about double taxation without relief.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:39:13 – 00:42:00]
Oh, yes, it’s, it’s, it’s a very scary thing. The other area where people really have to look out. So if they’re, if they’re working overseas, like the green card holder who’s abroad, he may be. Let’s take the guy in the UK and he says, you know what? I know there’s something called the treaty tiebreaker, that if I say, if I’m a resident of both countries under the treaty and I use the treaty tiebreaker because I have closer connections under the treaty rules to the uk then I’m not going to be treated as a US Resident, even though I have the green card and I don’t have to pay tax. So people have to be careful with this because if they have held the green card for the eight years that we’ve talked. Eight tax years we’ve talked about, and they do the treaty tiebreaker, that’s an expatriation. Now, that only applies using the treaty tiebreaker, that only applies if you’ve already had the card for the eight tax years. If you haven’t, let’s say you know, you’ve had a two tax years and then you go to work, for example, you go in the UK and you want to use that treaty tiebreaker. That will not be an expatriation for tax purposes. But the thing with the uk, it’s got a very, very interesting treaty tiebreaker. Most countries say the treaty tiebreaker. If you look, it’s in Article 4 of the treaties. So if you look at the treaty tiebreaker, you need to be a resident of both countries in order to use the treaty tiebreaker, and you need to be a resident of both countries under the treaty. So what most treaties say is, you know, if you are treated as a tax resident of the country, then you’re treated as a resident for purposes of the treaty. The UK Treaty doesn’t say that. The UK Treaty says if to be treated as a US Tax resident, like holding the green card isn’t enough. You also have to have had substantial presence in the United States or you have to have a place of permanent place of abode. They’re using different wording than just the fact that because you hold a green card, you’re treated as a US Tax resident. That’s not enough for the UK Tax treaty. So to use the UK Treaty tiebreaker is more difficult than other countries is what I’m trying to tell you. So your guys need to pay particular attention to that.

Richard Taylor:
[00:42:01 – 00:42:42]
Virginia, am I right in thinking sometimes if you, if people are sat in the US Listening to this and they’ve thought, I’m just gonna leave on a green card and give it up, but now we’re making them aware that it’s not that simple, and especially if they’re a covered expat is sometimes the best planning they can do is, is taking about applying for U.S. citizenship and just dealing with the lifelong, you know, lifelong tax tie to the US and tax returns and, and all the, all the, the troubles that come from that are lesser than the, the, the one time seismic event. I’m being a covenant. Well, actually, we’ll talk about the transfer tax. There are lifetime consequences, but sometimes.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:42:42 – 00:42:43]
Yes, please. We didn’t get to that yet.

Richard Taylor:
[00:42:43 – 00:42:48]
So sometimes is that, is it just, dude, you’ve got to take U.S. citizenship. I’m sorry.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:42:52 – 00:45:04]
They don’t even need to go that far. Okay, so if you are domiciled in the United States from an estate and gift tax perspective, like your, your domicile is there, then you will be treated the same as a U.S. citizen. You know already from having the green card, you’re treated the same as a US Citizen from an income tax perspective. But we also have to look at gift and estate tax rules, okay? And if you’re domiciled in the States because you know, you’re really there and you have all these connections and that’s where you live and your family’s there and you know, so many people have children born in the US Like a lot of your people. They come as young, married couple, they have children born in the States. Those kids are now U.S. citizens. They have to take into account, gee, what’s best for my planning, taking into account my entire family situation. Because as you mentioned, Richard, not only do we have the mark to market regime and the possibility of the pensions, foreign pensions, being taxed so horrifically under the exit tax regime, we also have something called this transfer tax problem. So if you are a covered expatriate and you give a gift or you leave an inheritance to a U.S. person, that U.S. person has to pay whatever the highest gift and estate tax rate is at the time they get it, the gift or the bequest from the covered expat, they have to pay the IRS 40%. Currently. That’s the current rate of the value of a gift or inheritance that they’ve gotten from a covered expat. So you have to look, if I’m going to be a covered expat pet and I can’t get out, you know, you’ve had guidance and, and you’re stuck for whatever reasons, and you’ve got foreign pensions that you’re worried about and you have US family members, then, you know, maybe the best thing is to stay put and say, well, I, I just, I won’t give up. I’ll just stay put and, and just.

Richard Taylor:
[00:45:04 – 00:45:49]
Bring that to life for people. So you, you’ve, you’ve come to the U.S. you’ve done well, you’ve had kids, you’ve built up a sizable estate, you want to go back and live in Europe or wherever it may be, and you leave the U.S. you expatriate, you’re a covered expat, you sort all that stuff out. You’ve made a, you think you’ve made a clean break. I mean, you have legally, but there’s a long tail to this. You’re now living it up in Portugal. You’re living it up in Portugal, you’re having a great life and you got more money than you’re going to spend because your US Dollars go so far in Portugal, and you want to start giving your US Kids who are getting started in America, which is much more expensive, you want. You want to start helping them out. You want to help them buy houses, you want to help them start businesses, whatever it might be, and you want to give them a million dollars each. You give them a million dollars, they.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:45:49 – 00:45:52]
Don’T have to pay 400,000 to the IRS.

Richard Taylor:
[00:45:52 – 00:45:58]
They have to pay $400,000 straight up to the IRS, not you. And it’s their responsibility.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:45:59 – 00:46:30]
No. And the reason it’s not you is because now you’ve expatriated, so the irs, the US Government, no longer has jurisdiction over you. Okay? But they still have jurisdiction over the US Recipient. That’s why this covered gift and bequest transfer tax applies only to U.S. recipients of gifts or bequests from covered expats, because the government has jurisdiction over those US People, makes them pay.

Richard Taylor:
[00:46:30 – 00:46:31]
And what about.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:46:31 – 00:46:33]
So they get, you know, punished.

Richard Taylor:
[00:46:34 – 00:46:46]
And what about if you. You came to the US and you left and you weren’t a covered expat at the time, you know, you were under that 2 million ban or whatever, and then you’ve made your money in Europe or Canada or wherever it might be?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:46:47 – 00:46:49]
Well, you weren’t a covered expat, full stop.

Richard Taylor:
[00:46:49 – 00:46:56]
You weren’t. But as I understand it, it’s on your kids to prove it. And if they can’t prove it, Ah.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:46:58 – 00:49:22]
Yes, we’ve got a problem with that. You might know, I don’t know if you read my latest tax blog, but the IRS just issued. Good for you. Of course, the IRS just issued regulations six days ago. They were issued January 10th. They’re 129 pages long. Okay, so I’m weeding my way through those, but I’ve already got a lot of questions. It’s up to the US Recipient to know whether the person they got the gift or inheritance from is a covered expat. And it’s up to them to know if the gift is a covered gift or a covered bequest. So the onus is on that U.S. recipient. Now, the IRS has said. And the IRS can help you make that determination. You know, we can send you maybe tax records to help you make that determination. If the donor of the gift is a living person and they refuse to give consent to the IRS to give you those documents, then there is a rebuttable presumption that this gift they gave you is a covered gift. And you’re going to have a really hard time rebutting that presumption. So here’s a point I want to raise. When I’ve dealt with people expatriating green card or citizenship, I always say to them, okay, we’ve got our five years of tax compliance, we’re good. You’ve expatriated, you’re not a covered expat. Wonderful. Let’s get all of your tax returns and all of your transcripts from the irs because it’ll have their stamp on it that this was the one Mr. X submitted and this is what we have in our possession. So now we have a full dossier of proof of tax returns. He never, you know, was non tax compliant. He never had the income tax threshold. He filed his Form 8854, said, I’m not a covered expat. I’ve met all my tax. You have everything signed, sealed and delivered from the irs. Well, a lot of times when I’ve tried to get that stuff, they say they don’t have the records.

Richard Taylor:
[00:49:22 – 00:49:24]
Of course they do.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:49:25 – 00:49:36]
Okay, so that’s a problem. Or they’ll say, we can send you the transcript. We don’t have the tax returns. I vaguely remember reading somewhere, after seven years, they destroy stuff.

Richard Taylor:
[00:49:37 – 00:49:41]
Wait, so if they have the transcript, the transcript’s not enough. You need the actual stamped return.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:49:41 – 00:50:41]
The transcript just gives you like a summary. It’s better than nothing. It’s better than nothing, at least. Hey, he’s filed a tax return. Hey, it’s got what his tax liability was for that year. So, you know, he never overstepped the threshold on the income tax liability test. He filed a Form 8854. Hopefully that’s going to be reflected on a transcript. But the point I’m trying to make is it’s not that easy to get the records. And if you’re talking years later, when somebody dies, forget it. And you haven’t figured this out well beforehand, you think you’re going to get that stuff, you’re not going to get that stuff. So I tell people, you’ve got to have all of these important tax documents with your will. You’ve got to tell your lawyer who’s handling family matters, you’ve got to talk to the kids, you’ve got to talk to everybody so people understand the consequences of section 2801.

Richard Taylor:
[00:50:42 – 00:50:44]
Most people don’t, though. Do they? They even.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:50:44 – 00:50:57]
They don’t. And advisors, I’m sorry to say, are not giving them the full advice that they need. You know, it’s like, yeah, we helped him expatriate. We’re Done, done deal. Not in my book.

Richard Taylor:
[00:50:59 – 00:51:10]
You know, part of that is people, part of that is professionals don’t, don’t understand maybe the ramifications and the long tail. And then frankly, if I’m honest, some of that is just people don’t understand, want to pay professional fees.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:51:11 – 00:51:19]
I know we’ve gone through this, Richard. They really don’t. But you know what you pay? Peanuts. You’re going to get monkeys and you’re going to pay the price. At the end of the day, it’s.

Richard Taylor:
[00:51:19 – 00:51:57]
Better to prepare than to repair, as I always say, which is not my line, but it’s such a great line. And, and you, you don’t. And someone’s going to pay. When the US is concerned, ultimately someone will pay. It’s. It’s you a bit now or it’s you or your heirs a lot more later. And it’s not just, it’s not just the financial cost. The financial cost though, is significant. It is the emotional turmoil. This. There’s the emotional turmoil of just going through anything like this and there’s the emotional going up against the US Government in whatever form is just particularly scary. Are we anything else we should talk about with the exit and covered expat exit transfer tax?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:51:58 – 00:55:49]
I think we’ve basically covered everything. So just like to give it in a big nutshell, summary. You’ve got to look out for a few things when you are coming up. If you hold a green card, start looking now and say, do I really want this? Do I need this? Because I’m coming up on the eight tax years. So let me decide what to do here. I’ve come, come across a lot of people that, oh, well, it’s so nice I have my green card. I can get to the US without applying for a visa, without worrying about. They are just clueless as to what this means. So people have to really consider, and I have a nice article on Forbes on this topic. Do you really want to get or keep your green card? So that’s one thing, because once you’ve hit the eight tax years, which we know can be easily achieved, because the day you get that green card, even if it’s, you know, middle of December, it counts as a full tax year and you give it up January 2nd, that counts as a full tax year. So you’re going to easily come up to the eight tax years sooner than you think. So once you’ve got there, you’ve got to say, well, am I a covered expat? Is my net worth 2 million or more? Is my Income tax liability average over the past five years meeting this threshold. Have I been fully tax compliant for the five tax years before? And if you say I don’t have a $2 million net worth or I’ve done gifting, so I know I’m not worried about it and they’re bona fide gifts so the IRS really can’t challenge me and so forth and so on that you feel comfortable with that, then you’ve got to look at your tax compliance. Don’t go to your $400, 1040 tax return preparer for this. Spend the money and say, let me get all my returns reviewed by someone who’s in the know and they will talk to me. Because just looking at a piece of paper to say, yeah, I reviewed his returns, they look fine. That’s not what it’s all about. It’s like I have to talk to you and ask you questions. Have you made gifts to anybody past $18,000 a year or $19,000? Did you file a gift tax return? Do you have foreign life insurance? Because there’s special rules about paying foreign life insurance premiums. You might not be fully tax compliant even though you think you are. So get the returns reviewed, sit down and talk to someone who’s got the knowledge for international tax issues. If you’re clean and you go, fine, give up your green card. Make sure that you know people have all the tax documentation so that later on if they get a gift from you, if there are US people in the family or they get an inheritance from you, they will be able to talk to the IRS and show the proof he was not a covered expat. I don’t have to pay the 40% transfer tax. Be careful with, as we said, if you’re working abroad and you want to use the treaty tiebreaker, if you’re already at the eight tax years, you’ve already done an expatriation when you use the treaty tiebreaker. And if you’re at the airport trying to come in and they’re giving you a hard time and ask you to sign a Form I407 because you haven’t been meeting your residency as required. If you’re at the eight tax years, that’s going to be an expatriation for you without any tax planning. So those are, I think the major, major points to look out for for people that you are assisting.

Richard Taylor:
[00:55:49 – 00:56:31]
Yeah. I also just add to that if you, if you are an ex pat, an immigrant who came here mid career with non US assets and background and you’re, you’re paying someone $400 to do your 1040, or heaven forbid, you’re doing it yourself. There’s other problems in there. Before we even get to this point, you’re doing that all wrong. Wow, wow, wow. Some so much food for thought. Such an important topic. So misunderstood. I have several conversations of this every single year. I stopped Pete. I’ve stopped people from going home with a green card and putting it in their drawer. I’ve stopped people from going home and thinking they could just come back indefinitely. I hope this, this podcast saved a.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:56:31 – 00:56:32]
Lot of people then, Richard.

Richard Taylor:
[00:56:32 – 00:56:55]
Well, and hopefully this podcast will reach many, many more. And, and I, I, I, I wish it was, this is naive of me, but I wish it was somehow mandatory that anyone who was going from a card somehow had, was given this podcast or your article or something that educated them on this is what you’re, this is the regime you’re entering into here. Are you, do you really need this green card or not? Think about this.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:56:55 – 00:57:42]
So, yes, and I have said the same thing saying, you know, when people naturalize as citizens, they ask them, so what’s the longest river in the United States? I mean, these questions that, quite frankly, do not have any bearing on whether or not the person understands a very important aspect of life in America as a citizen, and that is our tax system. They don’t understand, oh, I have assets back home in wherever country, and I don’t need to worry about those because I didn’t bring them to America. People will say to me, what can I bring and not be taxed? And you’re like, what do you mean bring? You’re going to be taxed on everything you own, every income that you get, no matter where it’s at. Really?

Richard Taylor:
[00:57:43 – 00:58:19]
Yeah. So ask you a question. What, what is the longest river in the U.S. i don’t know. The Mississippi. I’ve done that naturalization test, and I can’t remember what the longest river is. Well, we’ll have to let up for next time because hopefully there will be next time. Yes, of course. Oh, I spoil the surprise. Well, Virginia, thank you so much for coming on again. I hope this is the, as I said before, I hope this is the second of many. You’re a wealth of information. This is a super important topic. There’s so many more for us to cover. And thank you.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:58:19 – 00:58:25]
Oh, it’s been a pleasure. And I look forward to our next one. We have so many great topics we can talk about.

Richard Taylor:
[00:58:25 – 00:58:29]
We do, we do. Just as I always ask, where can people find you?

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[00:58:30 – 01:00:14]
Okay, so they can always go to my US tax blog, which again is www.us-tax.org. if they just Google my name, they’ll find me and I am a contributor on Forbes. So they can put in Forbes and my name and they’ll find the articles. And I think we mentioned this in our other podcast, Richard, and I think it’s very important for people that do have U.S. tax issues, they need to find. They need to find a reliable source of information. Because you and I have discussed there’s so much out there, people get confused. They don’t know what to believe, what’s correct, what’s incorrect. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of incorrect information out there. So I think get hooked on to somebody that is a good advisor and writes regularly, keeps you up to date. I think I’m one of those people that is very good at what I do and makes the information easily digestible. So people should consider, you know, signing onto the blog and subscribing. It’s free, or signing following me on Forbes. And they don’t have to read everything, but they’ll get something in their email. They’ll at least see the title of the post, whatever it is, and that will clue them in. Oh, this is something I better read because I think I have this issue. There’s so much information. There’s an expectation that people do have a certain amount of knowledge or should be looking for things that are impacting them in the tax world.

Richard Taylor:
[01:00:14 – 01:00:47]
Right. And if you want to understand how the IRS isn’t going to accept. Oh, sorry, Gov, I didn’t know. Go and listen to our Last podcast, episode 37 on reasonable cause and what is required to assert reasonable cause and just saying sorry, girl, I didn’t know is unlikely to cut it. I would also just add to that if I can, LinkedIn. So if everyone’s active on LinkedIn, you can follow Virginia and you post your blogs regularly. Yes, that’s another way to have them as well. Fed, Fed, fed to you. So great. Well, thanks once again, was a pleasure.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[01:00:47 – 01:00:49]
I look forward to the next one. Richard.

Richard Taylor:
[01:00:49 – 01:00:50]
Excellent. See you soon. Thanks, Virginia.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[01:00:50 – 01:00:50]
Yep.

Richard Taylor:
[01:00:51 – 01:00:51]
Bye.

Virginia La Torre Jeker:
[01:00:51 – 01:00:52]
Take care.

Richard Taylor:
[01:00:54 – 01:01:53]
All right, folks, that’s another episode of we’re the Brits in America Under Our Belts. Thank you for listening. I appreciate it. And I appreciate you. If you’re enjoying the show and would like to support the mission, which is to help ambitious expats and immigrants thrive in America, I’d ask you to subscribe to the POD wherever you listen and also consider leaving a rating and review this stuff really does matter. Please help us get this information to the the people who need it, I. E. Your fellow expats. Just a quick reminder that this show is brought to you by Plan First Wealth. We are a US based lifestyle financial planner and Wealth Manager and we help successful American and international families living across the US to make the most of their opportunity and ultimately to retire happier. If you’d like to know more about how we might be able to help you, you can find us on our website, www.planfirst wealth.com or you can look me up on LinkedIn. Do get in touch. Would love to hear from you. As always, thank you to the podcast guys for their help producing this episode and the entire show. See you next time.