The Complexities of Having a UK Pension in the US: Navigating Pension Commencement Lump Sums | From The Trenches with James Boyle

Many expats assume their Pension Commencement Lump Sum (PCLS) will remain tax-free when they relocate, but the US UK tax treaty leaves too much ambiguity to be certain. Therefore, what should you do with your PCLS when moving to the US as a British expat? Working with a dedicated cross-border tax advisor can help you avoid costly IRS repercussions.

Host Richard Taylor – dual UK/US citizen and Chartered Financial Planner – is joined by James Boyle – Lead Financial Planner at Plan First Wealth – to break down the UK’s 25% retirement lump sum, or PCLS. Many expats want to bring that lump sum with them when they move to the United States because it’s tax-free in the UK. However, the only way to obtain a definitive interpretation of the US UK tax treaty is through court proceedings. Until then, the guidance of qualified cross-border tax professionals is essential when reviewing the treaty’s provisions on retirement funds.

In this episode of We’re The Brits In America, Richard and James explore:

• The 25% tax-free lump sum from UK pensions and its potential tax implications in the US.
• The ambiguity of tax treaties between the US and UK and how this affects pension income.
• The importance of engaging with qualified cross-border tax professionals.

 

More about We’re The Brits In America:

With the right financial advice, landmines that threaten expat wealth can be avoided. Often encountered by U.S.-connected expats, these financial landmines are more numerous, more hazardous, and less understood than almost anywhere else in the world. As a result, non-cross border professionals, wealth advisors, and even international advisors are often unaware of them. But don’t worry, We’re The Brits In America has you covered.

We’re The Brits In America is dedicated to helping ambitious U.S.-connected expats and immigrants navigate those challenges — and thrive. Whether you’ve moved to the U.S. for opportunity, or are an American seeking adventure and growth abroad, our job is to equip you with the tools and insights you need to succeed.

If you’re enjoying the show, please consider leaving a 5 star rating and review to help the mission, which is to help expats and immigrants thrive in America. Visit planfirstwealth.com to learn more about our services and connect with Richard Taylor on LinkedIn.

We’re the Brits in America is affiliated with Plan First Wealth LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Plan First Wealth.

Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investments involve risk and unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Be sure to first consult with a qualified financial adviser and/or tax professional before implementing any strategy discussed herein. Plan First Wealth does not provide any tax and/or legal advice and strongly recommends that listeners seek their own advice in these areas.

About Richard

Richard Taylor is a British expat, dual citizen (UK & US). Originally from Bolton, he now lives in Greenwich, CT, where Plan First Wealth has its head office.

As the firm’s leader, Richard launched Taylor & Taylor, now Plan First Wealth, and continues to fuel the firm’s growth. Richard is a Chartered Financial Planner (UK – CII) in addition to holding the IMC (CFA UK) and Series 65 (US – FINRA).

Connect with Richard on LinkedIn

TRANSCRIPT:

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:01:01 – 00:01:13]
Welcome back to another episode of from the Trenches where myself and my colleague James Boyle get together and bring you behind the scenes on what we’re working on in the business with clients at Plan First Wealth. Hi, James.

James Boyle:
[00:01:13 – 00:01:14]
How’s it going, Richard?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:01:14 – 00:01:22]
Good. My in laws are here so they are helping with childcare. I’ve had. Didn’t have to do the school run yesterday which was great.

James Boyle:
[00:01:22 – 00:01:27]
I did not know that. That’s good. Is it holiday related with Thanksgiving coming up or.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:01:27 – 00:01:46]
No, no, just. That’s just a coincidence actually before Thanksgiving they are here for. For a week and it’s great. Yeah, kids are absolutely loving it. K and I are kind of loving it. And we are heading into New York this weekend for a weekend of doing what we want to do, when we want to do it, how we want to do it. And I cannot wait.

James Boyle:
[00:01:46 – 00:01:47]
Any plans?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:01:47 – 00:01:50]
Oh yeah. Eating a lot. Various places.

James Boyle:
[00:01:50 – 00:01:50]
Smart. Smart.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:01:51 – 00:01:53]
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s good. What about you?

James Boyle:
[00:01:53 – 00:02:02]
We’re deep into holiday season now. We’ve got all the seasonal decorations up. Can’t believe how quickly it’s coming up on us.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:02:02 – 00:02:05]
Isn’t it not sacrilege to do that before Thanksgiving?

James Boyle:
[00:02:05 – 00:02:13]
You know, I’ve tried to make that argument in my household and it hasn’t gone over well. My, my wife has overruled me.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:02:13 – 00:03:27]
So you been vetoed. Okay. Yeah, I know what that feels like. Right. Well, so for any long time regular listeners, I’ll just. James and I are making a slight change to this show. We are going to now try and pick one question we’ve either been asked by someone or what we are encountering in the wild with our clients and we’re going to try and answer one burning question. So today we’re going to talk about PCOS. I’m talking about the 25% pension commencement lump sum, tax free lump sum, or you can now take it as an income or periodic payments from a UK pension. And we’re doing this for two reasons. One, because teaser alert. This is actually our last from the trenches under we’re the Brits in America. This podcast is going through a revamp. It’s not going away, it’s going through a revamp. I’ll tell you more about that at the end. But this is our last purely British focused one, so I thought we’d do a very British focused question. And second of all, we recently did a webinar on UK and US pensions retirement accounts and the last half hour was just a torrent, I’d say. A torrent. Right, James, of pcls related questions. And that is a theme of our lives.

James Boyle:
[00:03:28 – 00:03:36]
It is the number one question we get asked, I would say. And it’s the sort of billion dollar question that generates a lot of interest. Rightly so.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:03:36 – 00:03:43]
Right, well I’ll tell you what, right, why don’t you frame the question? What is the question that I’m referring to?

James Boyle:
[00:03:43 – 00:03:53]
The core of the question here is I want to take my pension commencement lump sum, like 25%. Is that tax free in the US if anyone’s want.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:03:53 – 00:04:29]
Like what are these two talking about? If you have a UK pension, let’s call it a SIP, or maybe it’s a company pension, stakeholder pension, whatever. Right. Maybe you even have a defined benefit, final salary pension, you are going to get an income from that and that income is taxable. But UK pensions have a feature called PCLS pension commencement lump sum and you are entitled to 25% up to some limits, a million, just over a million or 1.25 million if you have protection, 25% of that. So 250 grand or 212, you can take 25%. And in the UK that is tax free.

James Boyle:
[00:04:29 – 00:04:33]
Such a key little addendum there, right? In the UK it’s tax free.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:04:33 – 00:05:07]
Yeah. And everyone’s wondering. This has been all over the news in the UK recently because the UK is losing its mind in the run up to this current budget and there’s been a lot of speculation about UK pensions being attacked again because they have been a popular target. But recently the government came out and basically said, no, they wouldn’t be. They won’t be messing with this particular feature, which is good because this is a long standing feature of UK pensions and A lot of people have done a lot of financial planning on the basis and the expectation of receiving this 25 lump sum. People pay off mortgages with this. So it’s a critical piece of UK financial planning. But we’re not in the uk.

James Boyle:
[00:05:07 – 00:05:09]
It’s so embedded.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:05:09 – 00:05:10]
It’s so embedded.

James Boyle:
[00:05:10 – 00:05:18]
It’s so embedded that I think, you know that that feeds into expats when they come here thinking about what are the broader implications.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:05:18 – 00:06:05]
Reasonably so I think it’s, I think it’s reasonable. It’s reasonable to assume if you go to the UK with a Roth that they’re going to respect that. It’s reasonable to think if I have an ICE in the UK and I come to America, they’re going to respect that. It’s reasonable. It’s wrong. The US does not respect that. But it’s reasonable. I think it’s reasonable to say if the UK provides this feature, why wouldn’t the US respect it? But it’s not that simple as all things US it’s not that simple. And we are not in the UK where it’s crystal clear. We are in the US where it’s less clear. And with all things kind of cross border it comes down to the tax treaty. And I’d love it if everything was crystal clear in the tax treaty. But there is ambiguity and that ambiguity leads to a range of possible outcomes.

James Boyle:
[00:06:05 – 00:06:15]
Is it fair to say that there is no one answer? Right. As a preview, there’s no clear direct answer from the IRS on this issue.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:06:15 – 00:07:28]
I think so. Look, honestly there is actually an answer from the irs. There is actually some a memo or communication somewhere out there saying the IRS believe it’s taxable under whatever treaty and why. But that’s not law. Law is when it’s set down by as a law in Congress that’s never going to happen. Congress, FYI, are never going to make laws about UK pensions in America. That’s why we have the treaty. So you’re relying on it going to court one day and the court setting a precedent. Well that hasn’t happened yet. Maybe one day it will happen. In the interim we have the interpretation of the treaty and IRS guidance. And the IRS has issued guidance years ago that they consider it to be taxable under this particular article. Now all tax advice, well first of all that’s not law. It’s. They can say it’s a position in these memos or whatever it is, but it’s not law until it’s actually becomes an act or is set a precedent in court. So it’s not law, it’s our interpretation. And a lot of really good professional cross border tax advisors in my experience believe there is a case against that position, a supportable case and that’s where we are.

James Boyle:
[00:07:28 – 00:07:37]
In other words, a case to be defended. That the PCLs, the 25% could also potentially be treated as tax free in the U.S. yes.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:07:38 – 00:08:35]
Oftentimes this ambiguity frustrates the hell out of expats in this position. They want a clear yes or no and there frankly isn’t one. There’s maybe the IRS thinks so, et cetera, et cetera. And I would say the best thing would be an unambiguous yes. Right. It’s law, it’s precedent, it’s tax free. Great. Failing that, the next best situation is the one we have where it’s not an unambiguous no, it’s, it depends. And there’s the certain things you should be aware of and there’s certain hoops you should jump through. There’s a case to be made. Not, not a case that I’m making. You and I are not tax advisors. We never give tax advice. But we work with some really good legitimate cross border experts. Not talking about these people who devise these crazy schemes. I’m talking about bonafide cross border tax advisers and attorneys. They believe a case can be made.

James Boyle:
[00:08:35 – 00:08:39]
Some of whom have been previous guests on where the Brits in America.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:08:39 – 00:08:45]
Absolutely. They go through our archives and gorge on UK and US tax.

James Boyle:
[00:08:45 – 00:09:05]
I think though that that’s an important first piece. Right. Is this idea of ambiguity is not going to go away and it is inherent to the nature of being an expat in the States that barring a unambiguous clear answer, how can we then approach this in a prudent, reasonable, valid way?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:09:05 – 00:10:03]
It comes down to the treaty and in the treaty there is a specific section that deals with retirement accounts in both countries. And there are a couple of articles in this treaty that deal with distributions, payments, income lump sums paid from a retirement scheme organized in one country, I. E. The UK where the resident. Where the member. Sorry is now resident in another country, I. E. The U.S. the good news is both of these articles basically say if it’s tax free in the home country, the original country, then the, the new country will respect it. Which on the face of it, when, when a novice reads this, they think great, it’s unambiguous, it’s tax free in the UK The US will respect that. Happy days. Off I trot. The problem is both treaties contain something known as the savings Clause.

James Boyle:
[00:10:03 – 00:10:04]
The dreaded savings clause.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:10:05 – 00:10:28]
The dreaded savings clause, yeah. And the savings clause basically says, this is great, but if we want to override this, we can. It baffles me. I mean, it literally baffles me. What. What is even the point in writing an article if in the next breath you say, I can disregard that if I want to.

James Boyle:
[00:10:28 – 00:10:34]
All this beautiful legalese that we’ve just laid out to you, forget that in this instance, we’re to override that.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:10:34 – 00:10:41]
Why not Just don’t have it in. If you can override it at your will and you choose to every single time, don’t put it in the treaty.

James Boyle:
[00:10:41 – 00:10:42]
It’s like a handshake agreement.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:10:43 – 00:10:46]
Yeah, with you. I got your fingers crossed behind your back.

James Boyle:
[00:10:46 – 00:10:47]
Yeah.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:10:47 – 00:11:58]
Anyway, these are two treaties, one of which can be overwritten by the savings clause, one of which can’t be overridden by the savings clause, and the key differential is whether it’s a lump sum. Now, again, we’re in danger of getting into specifics here, but under one reading of it, I think if it’s a lump sum, then it absolutely falls into the. The one we don’t want, and then it’s. And then it’s taxable. But if you can argue it’s an income. Right, so then we get into the. It’s. It’s so silly. It’s called pension commencement lump sum. On the face of it, you say, oh, it’s absolutely a lump sum. Yeah. But actually, under the US technical definition of a lump sum distribution, it means an entire distribution. 100. Oh, well, it’s not that. So it’s not lump sum. Great. Oh, well, problem is, the UK just came out with some guidance that says anything over 20% is a lump sum. Oh, so it’s definitely a lump sum, then. Yeah. But also, despite it being called pension commencement lump sum, you don’t actually have to take it as a lump sum, you can take it as income. Wait, what? So look, if anyone followed that word salad, the point is, it’s not straightforward, it’s not clear. It comes down to the technical definition of a lump sum. And even when something is called a lump sum, it might not be a lump sum.

James Boyle:
[00:11:59 – 00:12:19]
Right, so, and this is an active issue, right. I mean, you know, I don’t mean to kind of over egg the pudding here, but that guidance that you referred to about HMRC’s interpretation of lump sum, what isn’t? What isn’t? That’s very recent. Right. We’re talking in the last year, I believe. So this is an active discussion that is ongoing and still, again, yeah, ambiguous.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:12:19 – 00:13:41]
So look, if you didn’t follow everything I just said, you don’t need to. I’m trying to make the point that it’s just crazy, convoluted and tricky and, and in some respects daft, but that’s what it comes down to when you’re trying to apply the law or the reading of a treaty. The point is here it is not clear if you go and talk to different tax advisers, right, here is my completely made up arbitrary percentages. 90% haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about and we’ll give you bad advice if you ask them. Well, hopefully some of them would say, I don’t know, go and speak to a professional. But most don’t have a clue. Of the 10 who do understand, there are some who will just tell you outright it’s taxable and you’ve got no options. There are some who will say you can make a case, you can take a lump sum and it’s tax free, or you can take it as a part of a periodic payments and it could be tax free. And you’ll have some who will say, look, the lump sum is taxable, but if you take it as an income, you might be able to argue it’s tax free. So Even within the 10% who do know, you’re going to have wildly different interpretations and positions and it’s up to you to find someone who explains this to you, who gets you comfortable with whatever course of action you’re going to take and you understand that it’s not a totally risk free endeavor if you’re going to take it as tax free. But I would still argue that’s better than an unequivocal no.

James Boyle:
[00:13:42 – 00:14:39]
Right? The fact that the conversation could even be had. Right. Because there is a world in which there was an unambiguous no or you know, it is taxable and then it’s a moot point. Right? So there is some, again, we keep going back to this idea of room for interpretation, ambiguity even amongst professionals, tax professionals who operate specifically in this space. And that’s, that’s the nature of being an expat in the States. Right. And for us existing in this cross border space, we know that that’s not always a satisfactory answer. Right? So always all we can do is deliver that message and then talk about, okay, so if I do, if I am considering taking this, what should I be thinking about? What should I be doing? What’s the actionable advice here? And I think the first one, I’m sure you’ll, you’ll say it is to engage a cross border qualified, in this case, US UK tax, professional, tax advisor.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:14:39 – 00:16:37]
This is why it’s so important. Right? So there’s the whole is it, isn’t it? What should I do? What are the risks? But if you’re going to take it and you’re going to claim that it’s tax free under the treaty, there are different ways you can do it. You can just take it and not declare anything. That would be a very bad way to do it, in my opinion, but I’m sure lots of people do that. If you work the professional, though, after they’ve apprised you of the situation and your options as they see them, and you pick one, and if you are going to treat it as tax free under the treaty, they can help you do so correctly. And that is of critical importance because this has to be reported in certain places, the, and the income. And you have to specifically claim on, on a form, I think it’s 8833. You have to specifically claim a treaty exemption. You have to, you have to notify the IRS that you are taking a position based on an interpretation of the treaty that you believe allows you to claim this is tax free. And if you do that, my understanding of it is, having spoken to many tax advisors, is that by meeting your obligations, by meeting the compliance obligations associated with this, as long as the rest of your return is in order, that’s critical. You know, there could be other errors in your return, other things missing, but assuming that’s not the case, you will be eligible for the statute of limitations. So the IRS will have three, maybe in some circumstances six, but usually three years with which to audit you or to challenge this transaction, this treaty reading. And if they don’t mind telling you how it is after that three or occasionally six years, it’s too late. Even if they do want to challenge it, they can’t. Whereas if you don’t take these steps, if you don’t fill in the necessary forms, if you don’t actively claim a treaty exemption, if you don’t put them on notice that you’re doing this, that that can be left open indefinitely, forever. So 10 years from now, if you did this and you didn’t do it correctly, they can come at you for tax and that’s to be avoided.

James Boyle:
[00:16:38 – 00:18:09]
This is such a critical piece of information. It’s something that is often overlooked or just flat out misunderstood, right? Or misinterpret. You need to File properly if there’s a treaty position being taken. Right. And if you don’t, the ramifications can be enormous. And just to kind of draw a line under that, we talk about this a lot, so you’re probably sick of hearing us say it, but if you’re heading into retirement, which I know a lot of our clients certainly are, a lot of the people we listen to, our audience, you do not want something like that hanging over you. You do not want a previous tax return from 10 years ago that in the event of an audit, and you have someone who is a stickler and who notices that there weren’t the right forms filed coming after you for positions that were taken like this and filed improperly, you do not want the threat of that hanging over your retirement. I mean, you know, you’re talking about potential penalties, fines. To our understanding, if the treaty position isn’t taken correctly, the irs, in the event of an audit, essentially acts as if there is no treaty protection. Right. So not only has it not been invoked correctly, it won’t even be applied in the eyes of the irs. Then you’re in a position where you’re having to argue with the IRS about what protection may or may not have existed at that time. So it is like you say, Richard, to be avoided at all costs. Just to sum up there, the kind of three takeaways, because I know we see it a lot, right. We get asked this question a lot and we can feel sometimes the frustration or the resentment because there is not a clear answer.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:18:09 – 00:18:38]
The frustration is there’s not a clear answer. And we always, always say there’s not a clear answer. You have options, but you have to do this correctly. And I believe the only way you can do this correctly, the only way is by working with a professional who understands this. And people don’t want to hear that because a good cross border tax advisor costs a little bit of money. Not, not excessively. So it doesn’t have to be excessive, but it is an investment. I have a good one. And a lot of time people don’t want to hear that.

James Boyle:
[00:18:38 – 00:18:38]
Yeah.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:18:38 – 00:18:45]
They want to just know, yeah, it’s tax free. And I can just, I can just take it and be done and it’s all good. Yeah. Unfortunately, that, that answer is one that we’ll never get from us.

James Boyle:
[00:18:45 – 00:19:21]
Yep. I think that’s key. Right. Is, is a good tax advisor, in our view, is worth their weight in gold. You’re going to get a lot more value out of doing things the proper way and closing off the potential you know, penalties, fines, added tax down the line, that exists. So that’s kind of step one, Right. Actionable advice. Work with a cross border tax advisor. We work with a plethora of great ones that our clients, you know, engage, some of them have been on the podcast. Number two, if you’re taking the position, understand the risks. Right? Have a solid understanding. You don’t need to know all the technicals, but understand if there are risks to taking that position, what are they?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:19:21 – 00:19:21]
Right.

James Boyle:
[00:19:21 – 00:19:37]
What are the possible after effects? And then number three, ensure you’re doing that properly. Right. With a cross border Tax Advisor, they’re going to be able to direct you on that. But again, there’s a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to just ignoring the steps that need to be taking if you’re taking a treaty position.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:19:37 – 00:20:45]
Yeah, well said, James. Thank you. Right, well, I alluded at the start that this was going to be the last focus. We’re still going to do podcasts on Brits, but what is coming is in January, we are relaunching this podcast under a new name that won’t share just yet. And we’re also going weekly as currently we’re bi weekly, which, which I’m sure everyone listening is tremendously excited about. And we are widening the scope. I really, I really enjoyed this, this podcasting journey. I’ve met some really great people, I’ve learned some really good stuff and I just want to, I want to expand it a little bit. I love working with expats in America. Most of our clients are Brits, but we, you know, we do encounter other expats and I think there’s an opportunity to get more of this out there to the, to people. So it’ll still be very, very British focused, but we are widening the scope slightly and we wanted to crown with the Brits in America with the most asked about issue, which is, is my 25% PCLS tax free, cash tax free in America? And the answer is, it depends.

James Boyle:
[00:20:45 – 00:21:16]
Maybe it is the number one question though there will be a lot more coming down the pike about the, the expansion. We get asked all the time about could you help with this? You know, either Americans leaving America or other expats who are dealing with us, with the US Tax system. So there is, there is, we recognize there’s a demand there and, and it’s really difficult to find good information, good knowledge, good data, good content in that direction. So we want to do what we can to, to meet, you know, the needs there of the audience.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:21:16 – 00:22:14]
I should just note as well, that as we go through this transition, there’s going to be a slight change to the scheduling in December. So don’t know how surprised everyone is, but there is a kind of an exodus going on right now of Americans, her heading to Europe amongst other places. And I actually, earlier in the year I recorded a series called Move to Europe and I met with a few really great cross border advisors that I know in Europe who are catering to this. So I thought we’d put out, I think it’s three or four podcasts under this Move to Europe series. So this is mainly targeted Americans looking to move to Europe, which actually includes lots of expats. Most of our clients who return to the UK and Europe have gone back as American citizens. So all of this applies to them as well. So if anyone listening to this thinks that they could one day end up in Europe, then this series is for you. And then we will be back on the 7th of January with our first from the Trenches under the New regime.

James Boyle:
[00:22:14 – 00:22:16]
Excellent, excellent. Excited?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:22:17 – 00:22:23]
Yeah, very good. Pick a mix. Should we talk about what we’re reading, consuming, listening to, etc.

James Boyle:
[00:22:23 – 00:22:24]
Let’s do it.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:22:24 – 00:22:25]
You want to go first?

James Boyle:
[00:22:25 – 00:22:26]
Erik Larson.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:22:26 – 00:22:28]
Oh, back our friend Eric Larson.

James Boyle:
[00:22:28 – 00:24:05]
Back to Erik Larson, a name that has been mentioned many, many times. There’s something about, I’ll say this time of year, the fall, coming in winter, sort of around the corner where I start to read early 20th century, late 19th century history books. I don’t know what the connection is there, but it just feels like it fits the mood and the vibe. I read one of, I think it’s one of his earlier books called Thunderstruck. You’ve had loads of, I’ve read a lot of his. Yeah. Yeah, I think I probably, I don’t know if I read every single one, but, but a lot of them, this one is about the invention of essentially the radio, wireless telegraphy. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that correctly, but Marconi, the, the Italian who came up with wireless transmissions. Larson uses his classic formula of sort of paralleling two stories that at first seem very much unconnected, but then you start to see how they sort of intertwine. Course of 5, 10, 15 years. Fascinating read, highly recommended. Really enjoy getting to know, you know, how all that came about and, and something that I found interesting. You know, Marconi himself wasn’t a scientist, he wasn’t a physicist and he was open to that and, and, and talked about it and really just found out how to transmit and receive these. What would turn out to be Hertz waves. Right. Radio waves through trial and error, through sheer sort of force of will. And it helps that he came from a very wealthy family, which. Which do. But a really fascinating journey. If you’ve read any Eric Larsson, you’ll be. You’ll be very comfortable and enjoy thunderstruck as well.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:24:05 – 00:24:10]
Okay, well, I’ll check that out because I love Eric Larson books and that. That sounds like an interesting story that I know nothing about.

James Boyle:
[00:24:10 – 00:24:12]
Yeah, I didn’t know a thing going into it.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:24:12 – 00:26:09]
I’m reading Ian Kershaw is a biographer of Hitler. And 10 years ago I read he’s done two. Two books on Hitler. One’s called. The first one’s called Hubris. It’s about the rise to power. And the second one, I can’t remember what it’s called. And then there’s a version where it’s like a condensed version. I mean, it’s still a tome, but it’s. It covers the whole of both books. And I read. I read the condensed one that covers Hubris and the second book about a decade ago, and it was. It was incredible. And then I’m listening to the Rest is History podcast, which is fantastic. I absolutely love it. And they did this whole series on the rise of the Nazi party and then Hitler’s rise to power. And they went all the way back to Bismarck’s time, like late 19th century and. And the. The roots of German nationalism. There was. And it was so fascinating right through to him being appointed chancellor. And then they’re basically seizure of power. They quoted the initial biography, Hubris, the first book of Ian Kershaw. So I’ve gone back and I’ve picked up that book and I’ve read. And it’s in its 1920 or 1900 to 1938 or something. The detail it goes into in this period is staggering. And it’s. God, it’s so interesting. It’s kind of terrifying. It’s really kind of terrifying. I’m at the point where they’ve just appointed Hitler to power as Chancellor, which obviously I knew all about. I knew the right. But how much the hubris they had, they had in just thinking they could control him. And then within four or five months, he basically had an iron grip on the country. It’s. It’s. It’s crazy. And I’m really, really enjoying that book. And that ties my other recommendation, which is Goal Hanger Podcast. This is Gary Lineker’s production company in the uk. They have a whole. They have like a family of podcasts. The rest is history. The rest is politics. Rest is politics. Us, we have ways of making you talk history. Politics. And I’m just getting into all their podcasts, frankly, and that’s led me to this book. So kind of a full circle moment.

James Boyle:
[00:26:09 – 00:26:15]
I have to check it out. I’m sure, too, reading it. Well, reading it now has a different, different feel to it.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:26:15 – 00:26:16]
Yeah.

James Boyle:
[00:26:16 – 00:26:18]
How do you find the time to listen to all these podcasts?

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:26:19 – 00:26:20]
I do a lot of dog walking.

James Boyle:
[00:26:20 – 00:26:22]
Dog walks. Nice. That’s good.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:26:22 – 00:26:26]
To supplement my income. Yeah, I don’t actually have a dog. I’m joking, everyone.

James Boyle:
[00:26:26 – 00:26:28]
Neighborhood just knocking on doors.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:26:28 – 00:26:48]
Yes. Yeah. I’m getting very busy with work and kids, but I do find time to walk my dog. So I will listen to a podcast when I’m walking the dog. I’ll listen to a podcast when I’m driving anywhere, picking the kids up from school. I’ll also often listen to podcasts around the house. My earphones I listen to when I’m exercising. I love. I truly love podcasts.

James Boyle:
[00:26:48 – 00:27:33]
I got to tell you, I’m a big listener as well. And I’m sure we have a lot in the audience right now who are driving and walking a dog and exercising. And so we, we always appreciate the listen. We should say. Right. Follow us wherever you. Wherever you find podcasts. This podcast is not going anywhere. Right. Let’s just reiterate that you still get the same subscription, still get the episodes. You’ll see the new branding and things in January, which we are very excited about. And if anyone has multiple dogs or finds they have dog walks without podcasts, they’ll be happy to know that we’re going weekly now. So you’ll have double, double the content from us. And we’re, we’re really excited for the new beginning, so to speak. Good. Well, thank you all for listening. We’ll see you. We’ll see you in the new umbrella.

Richard Taylor, Founder of Plan First Wealth:
[00:27:33 – 00:27:45]
Thank you, everyone. James and I will see you in the new year. In the meantime, between now and then, we have the pre recorded Move to Europe series, which I hope you enjoy. And James and I will see you in January. Bye.